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Old 5 Jul 2018, 15:52 (Ref:3834835)   #301
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If there is a prototype class split in 2019. Then maybe the class color codes can go back to what the ALMS had and WEC has now. DPI = red, LMP2 = blue, GTLM = green, GTD = orange.

At first I was skeptical of this happening and I prefer prototype to be just 1 class race. Despite the #99 Oreca winning Watkins Glen. I seem to feel after this race that the class split will happen.
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Old 5 Jul 2018, 17:16 (Ref:3834854)   #302
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If there is a prototype class split in 2019. Then maybe the class color codes can go back to what the ALMS had and WEC has now. DPI = red, LMP2 = blue, GTLM = green, GTD = orange.

At first I was skeptical of this happening and I prefer prototype to be just 1 class race. Despite the #99 Oreca winning Watkins Glen. I seem to feel after this race that the class split will happen.
Someone said Scott Atherton hinted at class restructuring after Petit ... and we all know his word is more reliable than gospel

I'd think if anything P2 would become a dedicated Pro-Am class .... with maybe Hyundai coming in to supply motors to the poorer teams who wanted to run DPi but couldn't cut deals with the established factories.
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Old 5 Jul 2018, 18:08 (Ref:3834864)   #303
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Someone said Scott Atherton hinted at class restructuring after Petit ... and we all know his word is more reliable than gospel

I'd think if anything P2 would become a dedicated Pro-Am class .... with maybe Hyundai coming in to supply motors to the poorer teams who wanted to run DPi but couldn't cut deals with the established factories.
I could see that becoming a class of P2s with Silver rated drivers and rules like GTD. And then bring on the sneaky Silver complaints on P2s. No mater which way they go people will whine a cry. And the more you make Wayne Taylor cry the more I enjoy it, but he has really gotten on my nerves since their winning streak ended last year.
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Old 5 Jul 2018, 18:12 (Ref:3834866)   #304
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Here is the latest on class separation, now the teams all want it:

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/t...-lmp2-classes/

the main change is JDC liking their odds of a DPi program.

This is fine, but I really don't see any additional entries coming from a split, especially in P2.
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Old 5 Jul 2018, 18:20 (Ref:3834869)   #305
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Bit of a strange argument from Wayne (when is he not strange) asking how you balance cars with an Am driver. Quite easy - balance it against the pro in the car. And there's some DPis with less than Pro drivers too...so that wouldn't solve the problem.

Dunno, not seen a good argument for splitting the classes other than wanting more speed. Racing has been great, which is the whole point.

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“I can’t see how to motivate a sponsor to come. We qualified 8th [at Watkins Glen]. How does that look to your sponsor when you’ve built the best car, the best drivers and you get it all taken away.”
You can't sign up for a BoP series and then complain the BoP doesn't let you win every race in the season. Caddy is the best car. But you wanted a BoP series and got a BoP series, so your car gets slowed down.
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Old 5 Jul 2018, 18:32 (Ref:3834875)   #306
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Here is the latest on class separation, now the teams all want it:

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/t...-lmp2-classes/

the main change is JDC liking their odds of a DPi program.

This is fine, but I really don't see any additional entries coming from a split, especially in P2.
Lol … John Daguys … great guy, really hard worker … great story-teller.

Cindric says things are fine. Wayne Taylor wants the rules tilted his way. Church from JDC-Miller changed his mind when he got a line on a possible DPi deal—and might change it again if the deal falls through. Oergel at PR1 wants to go back to the old days.

The headline makes it sound like team owners nearly unanimously want the split … when in fact the team owners mentioned are all over the map, and how many more were not interviewed? (Or, if interviewed, didn’t support the narrative?)

The one thing I see here is the Atherton comment—the big deal would be IMSA telling FIA to pound sand.

It seems IMSA worked its butt off to try to get some agreement with FIA on class structure so Euro teams might want to play along … and now after one season they are ready to toss the idea?

As I understand it, FIA wanted P2 teams to be part of the top class at IMSA because IMSA is not a WEC-level series—it is subordinate, like ELMS and AsLMS.

But … the new WEC regs (2020) might completely undermine everything IMSA has built anyway, which I think is why IMSA is considering changing its class structure.

I am not saying Daguys is wrong … but he does need to write stories which get readers.

I kind of imagine what Oergel suggests—P2 becomes the new PC, and WEC can stay on its own (Pro-Am ELMS and AsLMS teams would still be eligible, but how many would come to run for fourth or sixth?)

Anyway …. Much ado, little fact. Interesting to watch unfold.

Personally, I’d love to see the Oergel/Taylor solution—Make P2 into a Pro-Am class, and let DPis run as fast as they can. I cannot imagine that a lot of P2 teams would object—it isn’t like they have any chance of winning overall anyway.

But … I could be wrong.
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Old 5 Jul 2018, 18:45 (Ref:3834877)   #307
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Bit of a strange argument from Wayne (when is he not strange) asking how you balance cars with an Am driver. Quite easy - balance it against the pro in the car. And there's some DPis with less than Pro drivers too...so that wouldn't solve the problem.

Dunno, not seen a good argument for splitting the classes other than wanting more speed. Racing has been great, which is the whole point.



You can't sign up for a BoP series and then complain the BoP doesn't let you win every race in the season. Caddy is the best car. But you wanted a BoP series and got a BoP series, so your car gets slowed down.
A bop series that's supposed to have parity between each of the cars but they don't. The Caddy doesn't have to be far from a win for it to be wrong on bop. It's top speed was way down and it's lap time was nowhere. This is why it's best to leave DPi as a separate class and have p2's run their own class as-is. You won't make them equal without overly screwing one or multiple DPi's. They're naturally faster so let them be. It's almost as bad as DP vs lmp2 a few years back. In order to make the DP's as quick as lmp2 they had to give them huge breaks in power and weight and fuel etc. It's hard enough balancing the DPi's, but making them all equal to lmp2 seems like a work of futility. IMSA made it's own bed though, we'll see how they act/react soon.
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Old 6 Jul 2018, 02:27 (Ref:3834927)   #308
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You can't sign up for a BoP series and then complain the BoP doesn't let you win every race in the season. Caddy is the best car. But you wanted a BoP series and got a BoP series, so your car gets slowed down.
To be fair to Wayne, what he wants and the reality of what GM deigns to give him aren't necessarily one and the same. I know people kind of want to think of him as being one of those retired dudes that think it would be fun to play race cars but he's been in prototype sports car racing for three decades and been involved in running teams for almost two decades at this point.

You're right that it's kind of dishonest to say you wanted this class because it was your ticket to still getting factory funding then turn around and support making it something else but I think he realizes what he's doing.
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Old 6 Jul 2018, 16:52 (Ref:3835021)   #309
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Dunno, not seen a good argument for splitting the classes other than wanting more speed. Racing has been great, which is the whole point.
Here is how I understand the argument. The DPi teams don't like to be slowed down. They're racers, they want to go fast! Plus they are being slowed to the level of a pro-am team. So the speed of the P2's can only match that of the DPi when one driver is in. And say what you want about balancing speed, the teams will look at results and say "P2's have a disadvantage because we haven't won".

For the P2 teams, they have to sell seats. How easy is it to sell a seat when you say, look we can battle against these factory teams when your codriver is in the seat, but when it is your turn we will lose and hopefully finish 6-8th. If you could instead say, look, we have this awesome, fast, internationally relevant race car that you can race here, or in the ELMS, or Le Mans, where you will be fighting against other teams who have to fill a seat with an am just like you. You could win!

That is how I see it at least. DPi's don't want their speeds cut to run against am's and the P2 teams want to offer a chance for victory - even if it is a class victory.
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Old 6 Jul 2018, 16:56 (Ref:3835025)   #310
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They can still be a bop class that's faster than lmp2's class, if they separate the classes!
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Old 6 Jul 2018, 18:39 (Ref:3835041)   #311
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Here is how I understand the argument. The DPi teams don't like to be slowed down. They're racers, they want to go fast! Plus they are being slowed to the level of a pro-am team. So the speed of the P2's can only match that of the DPi when one driver is in. And say what you want about balancing speed, the teams will look at results and say "P2's have a disadvantage because we haven't won".
Ok, I see where they're coming from but I'm not sure the argument really holds up. So they don't want to be slowed down because they're racers? I don't think the speed of the class has any real effect on anything. I've never watched IMSA and thought "If these cars were just 3 seconds faster they'd be perfect!". I'm not sure what the extra bit of speed will really do?

The Pro-Am argument is a weird one, because ESM are Pro-Am. So you're trying to balance the cars based on the fastest driver in each car, and that includes ESM and LMP2. The LMP2s will largely fall off the DPis when the Am driver is in - the exception being when cautions bunch them up again. That's something Core played brilliantly at the Glen.

So ok, they want more speed. Not sure why. They still won't be running at full blast because it's a BoP class, so they'll all still be slowed down, just a few seconds up the road? And if they let them do that, then you have the potential of costs going up.

So really don't understand what that does.

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For the P2 teams, they have to sell seats. How easy is it to sell a seat when you say, look we can battle against these factory teams when your codriver is in the seat, but when it is your turn we will lose and hopefully finish 6-8th. If you could instead say, look, we have this awesome, fast, internationally relevant race car that you can race here, or in the ELMS, or Le Mans, where you will be fighting against other teams who have to fill a seat with an am just like you. You could win!
But the LMP2 cars could win now with a good strategy and well-executed race. Simpson did at Watkins Glen, and it would've been Core had they not fluffed the last stop. So this would be just putting them into a class win situation rather than overall win? And are teams like United going to make the trip over to race in a lower class?

The LMP2 class would just be Core, Performance Tech, PR1 and 2 JDCs. Many here have been very vocal about how small the LMP1 grids in WEC have been, yet we're talking about splitting classes and ending up with one that's equal to the smallest LMP1 field in recent years.

And 10 DPi. Sounds fine, except ESM are absolutely all over the place, and as much as I love Mazda, they're so far off it's embarrassing. And SoD may not last. So you're down to 3 Caddy and 2 Acura that are worth talking about.

I mean, I see the argument, I'm just not sure it's really worth much other than a few seconds a lap. IMSA finally got something good, and now we're going to mess with it?
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Old 6 Jul 2018, 18:51 (Ref:3835045)   #312
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Ok, I see where they're coming from but I'm not sure the argument really holds up. So they don't want to be slowed down because they're racers? I don't think the speed of the class has any real effect on anything. I've never watched IMSA and thought "If these cars were just 3 seconds faster they'd be perfect!". I'm not sure what the extra bit of speed will really do?

The Pro-Am argument is a weird one, because ESM are Pro-Am. So you're trying to balance the cars based on the fastest driver in each car, and that includes ESM and LMP2. The LMP2s will largely fall off the DPis when the Am driver is in - the exception being when cautions bunch them up again. That's something Core played brilliantly at the Glen.

So ok, they want more speed. Not sure why. They still won't be running at full blast because it's a BoP class, so they'll all still be slowed down, just a few seconds up the road? And if they let them do that, then you have the potential of costs going up.

So really don't understand what that does.



But the LMP2 cars could win now with a good strategy and well-executed race. Simpson did at Watkins Glen, and it would've been Core had they not fluffed the last stop. So this would be just putting them into a class win situation rather than overall win? And are teams like United going to make the trip over to race in a lower class?

The LMP2 class would just be Core, Performance Tech, PR1 and 2 JDCs. Many here have been very vocal about how small the LMP1 grids in WEC have been, yet we're talking about splitting classes and ending up with one that's equal to the smallest LMP1 field in recent years.

And 10 DPi. Sounds fine, except ESM are absolutely all over the place, and as much as I love Mazda, they're so far off it's embarrassing. And SoD may not last. So you're down to 3 Caddy and 2 Acura that are worth talking about.

I mean, I see the argument, I'm just not sure it's really worth much other than a few seconds a lap. IMSA finally got something good, and now we're going to mess with it?
I see your points, I was just trying to explain what I perceive as the teams involved points of view. For the Caddy's they do want to go faster because their engine is pretty hamstrung right now. But speed does matter, especially when you are trying to get around slower class traffic. We saw this a few years ago when the PC and the GTE cars were too close in top speed and it ended up with a lot of dive bombing into corners. I think the drivers like to lap traffic on the straights where it is safer vs divebombs in the corners. To be honest I don't know how much of an issue that currently is in IMSA, but it could be a reason for wanting to go fast. If the cars are already being slowed, I don't know how lessening restrictions would cost more? And if ESM are Pro-Am, as the driver ratings suggest, then that is more of a problem with driver ratings isn't it? But that is a different discussion

The big problem with splitting the class is I think the P2 class would shrink to less than 5 cars. JDC wants out, they want to go to dpi. So that leaves Core, PR1 and Performance tech? Maybe some other P2 teams could come over for big events, but like you say, what is the draw to play second class? Although, P2 teams came over in the ALMS days, so who knows. I think a split cas would make the 3 aforementioned teams happy, but ultimately not attract any new entrants.
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Old 6 Jul 2018, 19:15 (Ref:3835056)   #313
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I see your points, I was just trying to explain what I perceive as the teams involved points of view.
Oh I know, I understand

To me, this just seems like a giant strop. There have been 16 Prototype races in the new generation on IMSA Prototypes. LMP2s have won 2. So now there needs to be a split. Aye...ok.

IMSA is awesome. I wish we could just be happy with this awesome product rather than constantly tinkering with it.
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Old 6 Jul 2018, 20:04 (Ref:3835060)   #314
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The split needs to happen because the DPi's are not getting their roi. What's the point in buying one or developing one if a cheap(er) p2 can get the win for them? That's what IMSA needs to worry about. They did this to themselves though. You're not going to keep everyone happy but I think the bigger players will be happier if they don't have pro-am teams running faster because one of their drivers 'suck' and gives the indication the team needs help so they slow dpi down too much. I think that's one of the things going on currently.
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Old 6 Jul 2018, 20:07 (Ref:3835061)   #315
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But that's what a BoP class is? You could also argue why should ESM be allowed to fight with Caddy - Caddy put more money into it. But...that's what a BoP class is.

So we're after BoP, without the BoP.
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Old 6 Jul 2018, 21:06 (Ref:3835068)   #316
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The split needs to happen because the DPi's are not getting their roi. What's the point in buying one or developing one if a cheap(er) p2 can get the win for them? That's what IMSA needs to worry about. They did this to themselves though. You're not going to keep everyone happy but I think the bigger players will be happier if they don't have pro-am teams running faster because one of their drivers 'suck' and gives the indication the team needs help so they slow dpi down too much. I think that's one of the things going on currently.
I don't think they are looking at the slowest lap of each car and saying this needs to improve. Otherwise we'd always see an LMP2 car at the top of the list, Braun isn't slow but his co-driver is. Plus aren't they monitoring, it claiming to, the cars with active systems to determine if sandbagging is happening. Or so they claim.
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Old 6 Jul 2018, 21:26 (Ref:3835073)   #317
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I don't think they are looking at the slowest lap of each car and saying this needs to improve. Otherwise we'd always see an LMP2 car at the top of the list, Braun isn't slow but his co-driver is. Plus aren't they monitoring, it claiming to, the cars with active systems to determine if sandbagging is happening. Or so they claim.
No I don't mean the slowest lap. I mean the amateur drivers are going to be slower most of the time. That can alter the end results. I'm sure they look at everything. But once you see DPi's being half a second or more slower per lap than a p2, there's no reason that should be happening if bop was right. That must mean that they feel the p2's aren't as competitive as they should be. But they actually are and they just need a better team/driver combo to consistently show this. Unfortunately that's not going to happen often if at all. Most of the p2 teams are partially supported by a gentleman driver.
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Old 8 Jul 2018, 05:16 (Ref:3835325)   #318
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The split needs to happen because the DPi's are not getting their roi. What's the point in buying one or developing one if a cheap(er) p2 can get the win for them? That's what IMSA needs to worry about. They did this to themselves though. You're not going to keep everyone happy but I think the bigger players will be happier if they don't have pro-am teams running faster because one of their drivers 'suck' and gives the indication the team needs help so they slow dpi down too much. I think that's one of the things going on currently.
The manufacturers that entered dpi knew they would be bop'd against the p2s when they decided to join, no? They aren't getting their ROI when they have won 14 of 16 races? Splitting the classes and allowing manufacturers to develop the cars further opens a huge can of worms and could potentially just become a budget war of some sort. It ain't perfect, as the bop creates in equity both ways based on tracks, but it certainly ain't broke, and the potential consequences of split classes certas only don't warrant a change..

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Old 8 Jul 2018, 19:23 (Ref:3835520)   #319
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The manufacturers that entered dpi knew they would be bop'd against the p2s when they decided to join, no? They aren't getting their ROI when they have won 14 of 16 races? Splitting the classes and allowing manufacturers to develop the cars further opens a huge can of worms and could potentially just become a budget war of some sort. It ain't perfect, as the bop creates in equity both ways based on tracks, but it certainly ain't broke, and the potential consequences of split classes certas only don't warrant a change..

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The dpi's deserve to win because they're a better car or team. They don't win magically because of a flop in the bop process. Separating them still leaves you with a bop class. That seems to be ignored even though numerous people have said it. It'll be easier to balance because the DPi's are running pro lineups, not pro-am so most of the time there's not going to be one driver or stint that causes the team to lose chunks of time and therefor the race.
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Old 8 Jul 2018, 20:52 (Ref:3835554)   #320
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still need to split them up?

i await the excuses.
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Old 8 Jul 2018, 21:21 (Ref:3835558)   #321
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I thought you said CORE was too amateur to win in IMSA though?
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 01:07 (Ref:3835584)   #322
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I thought you said CORE was too amateur to win in IMSA though?

I'm not aware of anyone around here saying any of the LMP2 teams are "too amateur to win." I AM, however, aware of NUMEROUS people stating that the pro-am lineups of the LMP2 teams put them at a distinct disadvantage in most cases.

Which is completely true - all other things being equal, experienced all-pro lineups will always have a distinct advantage. It doesn't mean they'll ALWAYS win, just that they will the overwhelming majority of the time
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 02:09 (Ref:3835588)   #323
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still need to split them up?

i await the excuses.
Is the Cadillac running 930kg like the lmp2's? Maybe they finally have the bop right (somewhat) but it is pretty obvious that the dpi's are actually running well under their potential.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 20:27 (Ref:3835748)   #324
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Is the Cadillac running 930kg like the lmp2's? Maybe they finally have the bop right (somewhat) but it is pretty obvious that the dpi's are actually running well under their potential.
I think it'd be a mistake to split the classes, even if the DPI's are currently running below their potential.

With split classes you risk the P2 class ending up like the old PC class. Keeping the P2's in with the DPI's forces them to up their game and create results like we have seen at the last two races.
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Old 10 Jul 2018, 01:12 (Ref:3835779)   #325
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I think it'd be a mistake to split the classes, even if the DPI's are currently running below their potential.

With split classes you risk the P2 class ending up like the old PC class. Keeping the P2's in with the DPI's forces them to up their game and create results like we have seen at the last two races.
I think that is the biggest risk, the number of cars in the P2 class will be tiny.
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