Top Hat Regs & CTCRC regs. (Spin off from Mallory Park thread)

[Al Weyman]

John where were you today you naughty man? You missed a great days racing.

I think, and am making this appraisal after being camped up alongside some of the ModProd guests who seemed genuinely upset the ModProds is over, that you will find more of them will downgrade their cars and run in pre 93 than upgrade for CT. I suspected this would be the case and I think when gerald posted a lap time 11 seconds (!!!!!) faster than one of them it has made them think. According to the guys I was talking to they had the incorrect impression that they would be running with loads of our BMW's as they see at Lydden but the field that was out there to day at Donington was a complete eye opener so stand by for more pre 93 runners. they were also keen on running at Brands on the 4th but had heard nothing about it.

[johnw]

Hi Al
Been finishing the draft of the Pre-93 regs, but at least I'm dry .
Good to see that you finished without drama.


I did hear that Jason Christie was hospitalised, but heard no more. Do you know how he is?

The more the merrier in Pre-93 Al, so good news all round.

I'll get the news re the 4th to the Modprod guys via Greg Rose, and the VW guys via Ken Lark. But they will need to be registered members of the BARC to do that I suspect. Not sure that they are?

The Production beemers are genuine Pre-93 cars, so I hope that we still see many of them out there. They are quick enough to embarrass some more powerful opposition despite running standard engines.

No problem with running two races next year, if we have the numbers

I saw that Gerard was soundly thrashed by an XR2 - just the result to bump up the numbers

[Al Weyman]

He was thrashed by the attrousious weather as much as anything where as we had two very enjoyable dry races somehow with a very pristine track a lot grippier than I remember it in the past.

It was a nasty and sad incident the crash I was in the suite the club had organised for the sponsors after the race and there was not much talk of it so I hope Jason is well which is more than I can say for his and that oh so beautiful first gen Camaro, I nearly cried when I see the state of it, starting at the back can have advantages at times as it happened a way in front of me but with plenty of time to avoid teh carnage.

[COLIN STUBBS]

plastic windows,spoilers? oooh. whats phtc coming to?????

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by COLIN STUBBS

plastic windows,spoilers? oooh. whats phtc coming to?????

You are confusing me Colin, thats not on any agenda in fact a guy that entered a car at the weekend with just those options fitted had to go home and changed them for the race, anyhow as we have a weight limit what would be the point!

[COLIN STUBBS]

sorry al i was rolling about in fits of laughter here! i was looking at neil brays lads commentary from the weekend. seems like said driver of lightweight car was threatening to do something nasty.take a look. hope jasons ok.

[Al Weyman]

Well he fell off and even I beat him and I think I would have caught him anyhow despite starting from more or less the back. I think it was a storm in a teacup after speaking to both guys. Anyhow that chin spoiler and rear plastic quarters windows would not have made any difference and I would have let him race with them for a one off but I was never asked. :-)

[COLIN STUBBS]

thats ok al but when rules are rules,and the rules are simple,in black and white.why does someone turn up with a car like that? it only winds up other competitors and makes other people start bending the rules.

[Al Weyman]

True enough if it turned up like that and not force majure as happened to me at the previous round but I guess they were trying to play fair, its only a bit of fun after all isnt it and its not as though he turned up with a GA engine or something and those bits would make sod all difference as long as it was not entered like it again I cannot see the problem.

[johnw]

You're alll heart Mr Weyman

[daj]

"thats ok al but when rules are rules,and the rules are simple,in black and white.why does someone turn up with a car like that? it only winds up other competitors and makes other people start bending the rules."

Hhhhhmm valid comment but from my observations and experence the whole racing scene is bent !! ( JOKE !!! )

I have found the whole experence of building a 2002ti to regs quite confusing , The MSA or FIA dont have any papers ( they lost them ) so really its been talking to people and reading the standard regs . I get confused with brakes/exhausts etc . I thought they need to be pretty standard yet on the tracks you see dollys with side exhausts and I have seen 2002 with willwood brakes. Not having a pop at anyone or suggesting they are dodgy cars but it just makes it confusing as to what you can and cant do?

Same with engines really , Do people really build group 1 engines or the best they can afford performance wise? 230bhp capris etc . Again not wanting to start trouble, I just find it hard as a historic saloon newbie.

best regards

daj ( junior not senior )

[Al Weyman]

You're alll heart Mr Weyman

I know, I know.

[Al Weyman]

What championship are you building to Daj

[daj]

Group 1 , That can be used for top hat aswell as csccgb but eventually getting its papers for european events such as Spa 6 hours .

[Al Weyman]

Do you mean Classic Touring Car Racing Club Group one that Tophat allow or run to I believe because if you do the brakes and exhausts are free as are cams etc.

[Chris Griffin]

Daj, the CTCRC regs allow free exhaust exit so long as its behind the centre point of the chassis if I remember correctly. So long as it's under 105dB in the UK it doesn't matter. As far as brakes go, you can fit whatever you like so long as they fit within the original diameter wheels. Hence Nigel Garrett (Dolly Sprint) switching to steel wheels to maximise the room for calipers and discs!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by COLIN STUBBS

sorry al i was rolling about in fits of laughter here! i was looking at neil brays lads commentary from the weekend. seems like said driver of lightweight car was threatening to do something nasty.take a look. hope jasons ok.

Colin,

Where is this report? Link please.

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Well he fell off and even I beat him and I think I would have caught him anyhow despite starting from more or less the back. I think it was a storm in a teacup after speaking to both guys. Anyhow that chin spoiler and rear plastic quarters windows would not have made any difference and I would have let him race with them for a one off but I was never asked. :-)

Is this the famous Spa and Mallory Park winning car last seen not sold on E Bay?

Originally Posted by daj

I have found the whole experence of building a 2002ti to regs quite confusing , The MSA or FIA dont have any papers ( they lost them ) so really its been talking to people and reading the standard regs . I get confused with brakes/exhausts etc . I thought they need to be pretty standard yet on the tracks you see dollys with side exhausts and I have seen 2002 with willwood brakes. Not having a pop at anyone or suggesting they are dodgy cars but it just makes it confusing as to what you can and cant do?

Chris has given you the specifics Daj. However you might struggle to get any FIA papers for your car as a Group 1 vehicle and if you do it won’t match the Group 1.5 regs that were actually run by Belgium, France, UK and IIRC Germany, in period and indeed the FIA for international touring car races such as the Spa 24hrs. The CTCRC regs are those as run in period.

You can actually run anything that was homologated for Gp1 in period, which basically means bigger carbs as long as there are no more chokes, bigger brakes as long as they fit inside the standard wheel diameter, machined and balanced engine components, close ratio gearbox, limited slip diff. If you are building to PHTC then you can’t change the carb.

Originally Posted by daj

Same with engines really. Do people really build group 1 engines or the best they can afford performance wise? 230bhp capris etc .

See above but to put your mind at rest. The likelihood of a 230BHP Essex engine is pretty remote in Group 1 mode because even in period Neil Brown Engines (the best you could get) struggled to get to that level and they had the very best of internals. You can get that from triple carbs but that ain’t Group 1 as we’ve discussed elsewhere.

If you see 230BHP on the rollers then I suggest you knock back that figure by at least 20% because that would equate to around 280BHP at the flywheel.

[COLIN STUBBS]

Peter. Try http://classicalgas.spaces.live.com/ or look at ctcrc public bit of their forum and it will get you into live donington report.

[COLIN STUBBS]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

See above but to put your mind at rest. The likelihood of a 230BHP Essex engine is pretty remote in Group 1 mode because even in period Neil Brown Engines (the best you could get) struggled to get to that level and they had the very best of internals. You can get that from triple carbs but that ain’t Group 1 as we’ve discussed elsewhere.

If you see 230BHP on the rollers then I suggest you knock back that figure by at least 20% because that would equate to around 280BHP at the flywheel.

right. i was in the fortunate position to live near neil browns and meet one or two of there ex people/hangers on when i raced a capri. over 230bhp was certainly possible on single big IDA, but very unreliable due to the block becoming unstable. most of the race essex v6 motors are on DFI5 with something like a V66 cam and on an unoptimistic dyno are about 190bhp.

[terence]

Hi everyone, when Mass were building all of the essex engines for the Pickups etc ,Alan Sherwood always used 220 as a target, if the engine did not achieve this ,the engine was stripped to find out why.And yes they were reliable,some of the drivers used to see the whole season through on the one build.If my memory serves me correctly, they used a 38 on top,the Pickup Scrutineers did not mess around in that series,the engines had to be built on standard components.Inactual fact this spec was the the same that Jim Bayman used in his TVR Tuscan to good effect in HSCC Road sports, always a front runner.

[Peter Mallett]

Are you sure they were Essex? I thought they were the 2.8 Cologne.

To answer my question to Al, this is the famous Spa and Mallory Park winning Capri.

[Al Weyman]

Dunno Pete to be honest, it was the same colour and driver. Actually I did not catch him in the first race I got that wrong, starting from the back with a reversed gear sequence was a bit too much to ask even for the mighty chevy .

I was more on the case in the Group 1 though until I started to run out of petrol on about lap 7 and she started missing down the main straight but then he fell off. Anyhow a Camaro 'should' able to beat him in fact 'should' be able to beat all the Group One Capris if I had a proper engine in the thing but this one is a bit of a cooking engine (at the moment!) but she sure is handling and stopping well now (now where was 1st gear?).

[zefarelly]

This thread seems to be exclusively Groovy Baby Top Hat and 70's CTCRC as their issues are somewhat different to the pre66 ones ? ? ? Pre 66seems largely to boil down to App K vs personal interpretation of 'period kit'

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Dunno Pete to be honest, it was the same colour and driver.

It was the same car.

I'm not sure what his motivation is. Its almost as if he just wants to race a car to his choosing and stuff the regs. Very strange attitude.

[Al Weyman]

I was chatting to him in the paddock, he seemed OK to me maybe he just likes to race, nice to have the car out with us, you coming out next year Peter so I can see how quick that old Capri really is, enough of this Top Hat stuff for you (damned silly name for a start ).

Here is some goss for you that may be of interest Peter. A guy parked next to me with the rapid white red and blue Capri (Mark Fowler?) has bought a Capri Piranha South African V8 Mustang engined thing and is preparing it for Classic Thunder next season.