Grand Am making its move, is it time for ALMS to make its move?

[6157]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I know there was some voice of concern about DP's but do you HONESTLY think DP's all of a sudden are going to go from this -





To this -





If Grand AM pulls that off, along with showcasing some technology; coming from what just happen with Indy Car and considering they have more money and sponsorship dollars?

I'll be impressed to say the least.

Maybe not that but something closer to this:

[HORNDAWG]

That would be enough to pi_s off the Pope(The teams that run DPs and the mfg who build them)!






L.P.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by 6157

Maybe not that but something closer to this:

AW HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALE NAW. If GA adopts the DTM SGT merger rules, they better be more SGT and less DTM.



And I'm with Dead-Eye. If GA turns into a GT3 American championship, then I will watch the hell out of it. At that point I might even say **** off to IMSA (save for Petit). IMSA has dropped the ball on Atlantics, Star Mazda, and IMSA Lites, and they refuse to leave SPEED even though their coverage is embarrasing. They are too arrogant to believe they need help. I doubt they'll do anything about GTC until it's way too late.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Purist

Yes, that's a great message, but if only a fraction of the field can afford it, and the core of the fanbase HATES who's behind it, does this change really matter? Will it get any positive results?

GA doesn't have too many fans among the ACO crowd, and the ones who specifically went to GA are often NOT friendly toward "foreign", or particularly "French", influences on their series. They do NOT want the FIA of ACO anywhere near the United States, period.

The series is retreating geographically, and now you're talking changes that will cost tens of thousands per car, on every car, in a bad economy? This doesn't look, in practical terms, like a move forward, but like NASCAR is TRYING to just put the series down.

Speed King, you clearly have no idea about how much bodywork, and its development, costs. If these are really GT cars, you've got the engine you've got, because that's the model of car you're running. Otherwise, I guess we're really just going for silhouettes, huh, and not very high-performance ones at that. And then there's the matter or reworking the plumbing if you can't just bore the engine out more, plus posibly revising the mountings. Changing wheel widths and going to single lug hubs also requires looking at the suspension and how the wheels are mounted, because the stresses, moments of inertia, and concentrations of forces will be different from the 5-6 lug mountings.

Sorry, Purist, that all sounds rational and all, but none of any of this comes from Speed-King, but from Grand Am itself and from Tom Bledsoe and his team. Blather all you want, but IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. You want to read the memorandum? Just ask one of your contacts. What? They don't have it? Well, then, you'll have to find someone who does, won't you?

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

I think for most fans this is not a matter of loyalty. I prefer the racing I see in the ALMS, so that's what I'm following much more closely. If Grand Am changes and their racing ends up being more in line with what I like to see, then that's what I'm going to watch. I'm sure many feel the same.

Bravo, Dead-Eye, That's exactly the way I see it, and always have, though the partisans have never understood that. ALMS has worked hard to wear out its welcome amongst sports car fans, and may finally have accomplished the trick.

[extramundane]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Its been divided for a decade plus and the ALMS has won that battle, case closed.

Your definition of "won" seems radically different from mine.

[6157]

Originally Posted by extramundane

Your definition of "won" seems radically different from mine.

His definition clearly comes from a drug-induced hallucination.

Lower TV ratings, lower ticket sales, adding spec classes, that's a winning combination if there ever was one.

[JAG]

It goes without saying fans will follow the cars.

My prefered series has switched from FIA WSC, BPR GT, FIA GT and ILMC/LMS/ALMS. The one common factor is the series top cars have also been Le Mans entrants.

I'll C&P some of what I posted in another thread as the discusion has moved here.

ALMS management know all of their current LMP's can slot into P1 with few changes so why not commit to this now leaving P2 a good 6+ months to gain momentum and incorporate LMPC.

Budget P2's with production engines is what the ALMS have been calling for so need to be encouraged.

As for GTC they could at least announce one way or another whether they are allowing other brands before establishing which car will provide the base level of performace.

For all the talk of GA's grand plans they'll require new or highly modified cars in both DP and GT at a time when money is tight.

The ALMS can achieve much the same by shuffling around already exitisng cars, adding P2 and opening up GTC.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by extramundane

Your definition of "won" seems radically different from mine.

Won as in -

If the ALMS wasn't successful in winning over the core of the fan base, then I would consider that a lost and Grand Am wouldn't makingdynamic changes that flies in the face of the previous lock-step mantra "The the ALMS is too expensive and Manufactures take up all the oxygen".

If fans stand up and say "We Watch ALMS as a preference" then yes they have WON that battle.

Did they crush the competition? No, they have an aversion to crushing the head of the snake when they've had chances. The entire paddock (both sides) is on a friendly basics with each other. Its management who's at war here.

[ptclaus98]

Nobody won.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

It goes without saying fans will follow the cars.

My prefered series has switched from FIA WSC, BPR GT, FIA GT and ILMC/LMS/ALMS. The one common factor is the series top cars have also been Le Mans entrants.

I'll C&P some of what I posted in another thread as the discusion has moved here.

ALMS management know all of their current LMP's can slot into P1 with few changes so why not commit to this now leaving P2 a good 6+ months to gain momentum and incorporate LMPC.

Budget P2's with production engines is what the ALMS have been calling for so need to be encouraged.

As for GTC they could at least announce one way or another whether they are allowing other brands before establishing which car will provide the base level of performace.

For all the talk of GA's grand plans they'll require new or highly modified cars in both DP and GT at a time when money is tight.

The ALMS can achieve much the same by shuffling around already exitisng cars, adding P2 and opening up GTC.

FIA WSC should be thought of in the same stream with Jaguar's F1 program - A Massive Failure with 100% privateer teams and no manufacturer to blame for its downfall - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Sportscar_Championship

[blue40]

Zak Brown is directly involved with Grand Am and Nascar through a number of sponsorship deals he has set up over the years. I believe Just Marketing were responsible for getting Nascar to lift the ban on Liquor sponsorship when he brought in Crown Royal. He is involved with Eddie Cheever through Coyote cars. I'm sure when he invested in the R8's he had a view to running them in the US at some point.

[Purist]

TWK, I wasn't asserting that GA wouldn't do as you guys are saying, simply putting out the problems, and some rather large ones at that, with doing so.

Claus, Atlantics and Star Mazda are formula series, NOT prototype or GT feeder series. Also, if Mazda dropped the ball on those, which it seems they did, since when is that IMSA's fault, or their responsibility? I hardly even knew there was such a thing as IMSA Lites, so it's of no concern to me. And btw, where is ALMS going to go from SPEED, that will actually be better? There isn't a better channel in this country to go to. Versus will just help the series disappear more thoroughly, and the same goes for Spike. ESPN is already halfway to NASCAR TV, which is what drives all you guys nuts about SPEED right now, so even that isn't real improvement, especially when they have far larger entities to cover before they even get to sportscar racing of any variety.

6157, EVERYONE is having ticket and ratings drops at present, so that says NOTHING specific about the ALMS. Come up with a better argument, or quit before you dig the hole even deeper for yourself. And on your third point, I don't anticipate there still being spec classes for next year, so for me, that point holds no water either.

Now then, I too lean more toward SuperGT than DTM in terms of the looks of the cars, though there was just something I liked about those yellow Zakspeed Opels back in ITC/DTM.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

FIA WSC should be thought of in the same stream with Jaguar's F1 program - A Massive Failure with 100% privateer teams and no manufacturer to blame for its downfall - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Sportscar_Championship

FIA WSC as in Group C World Championship............

The FIA SCC was a later series but at the time manufactuers were competing in FIA GT with GT1 cars hence that was the series I followed.

Manufactuers moved from GT1 to LMP1 and the ALMS took FIA GT's crown as the No.1 sportscar championship.

[6157]

Originally Posted by Purist

6157, EVERYONE is having ticket and ratings drops at present, so that says NOTHING specific about the ALMS. Come up with a better argument, or quit before you dig the hole even deeper for yourself. And on your third point, I don't anticipate there still being spec classes for next year, so for me, that point holds no water either.

It's not my argument. Take your bashing to Tom Kjos. He's the one who wrote the article

As for the hole I'm digging, I'm just throwing dirt on the fanboys who proclaim LMPC will be any less spec simply because it's being filtered into P 2 and who proclaim the ALMS 'won' anything.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Purist

Claus, Atlantics and Star Mazda are formula series, NOT prototype or GT feeder series. Also, if Mazda dropped the ball on those, which it seems they did, since when is that IMSA's fault, or their responsibility? I hardly even knew there was such a thing as IMSA Lites, so it's of no concern to me.

Logically it isn't, but since Sportscars don't necessarily have a ladder formula, many of the drivers that went through Star Mazda and Atlantics are now driving sportscars. IMSA Lites could have been an amateur (or even those coming from Atlantics) stopping place before allowing those guys a license to race in the bigger series. Televise it, treat it like Nationwide.

And btw, where is ALMS going to go from SPEED, that will actually be better? There isn't a better channel in this country to go to. Versus will just help the series disappear more thoroughly, and the same goes for Spike. ESPN is already halfway to NASCAR TV, which is what drives all you guys nuts about SPEED right now, so even that isn't real improvement, especially when they have far larger entities to cover before they even get to sportscar racing of any variety.

The Discovery Channel. They can sell green technology, or just advanced technology in general. The type of people that watch Discovery are the types of people that watch the ALMS. Maybe you have to give Petit, Le Mans and Sebring to Speed. Or maybe Discovery can show it all.

There are others too, NatGeo and History. Discovery even owns the Science Channel. Discovery even owns the Science Channel. A good place for the brunt of the endurance races and any junior series.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

dj... keeping in mind that this is a Riley creation, with little modifications from the DP.

The Mooncraft. That is a rather attractive beast, I am still puzzled how that fit into a GT series but.....

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Logically it isn't, but since Sportscars don't necessarily have a ladder formula, many of the drivers that went through Star Mazda and Atlantics are now driving sportscars. IMSA Lites could have been an amateur (or even those coming from Atlantics) stopping place before allowing those guys a license to race in the bigger series. Televise it, treat it like Nationwide.



The Discovery Channel. They can sell green technology, or just advanced technology in general. The type of people that watch Discovery are the types of people that watch the ALMS. Maybe you have to give Petit, Le Mans and Sebring to Speed. Or maybe Discovery can show it all.

There are others too, NatGeo and History. Discovery even owns the Science Channel. Discovery even owns the Science Channel. A good place for the brunt of the endurance races and any junior series.

I just realized I double posted in one post. That's gotta be a first.

[Purist]

However, Claus, I don't think Discovery is a channel on which people are going to be expecting to see race broadcasts, so they're not as likely to even look for it there. NatGeo, and the Science Channel are too far up the channel numbers to be worth going onto, because you'll have a heck of a time finding them, and rather few people have all those channels to begin with.

The Mooncraft is an interesting one. That group took a nearly 30 year hiatus, near as I can tell, before coming out with that. It's not a bad looker in my eyes, though I think my GT300 favorite is probably the ARTA ASL Garaiya.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

The Discovery Channel. They can sell green technology, or just advanced technology in general. The type of people that watch Discovery are the types of people that watch the ALMS. Maybe you have to give Petit, Le Mans and Sebring to Speed. Or maybe Discovery can show it all.

There are others too, NatGeo and History. Discovery even owns the Science Channel. Discovery even owns the Science Channel. A good place for the brunt of the endurance races and any junior series.

No, those are the channels for those super relevant open wheel series to be shown on, like, Versus.




L.P.

[trahsub]

You guys with 'sources' seem pretty convinced the [annual] GA threat is strong for 2010. Propaganda perhaps?

Here, let me try:

"Sources close to the ALMS brass indicate the possibility exists for a significant number of LMP and GT cars to enter the series for 2011. Sources also suggest that in theory, the ALMS will have potential grids of 50-60 cars for 2011, as one source was overheard optimistically saying".

Time will tell, but I feel like we do this every year.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by trahsub

You guys with 'sources' seem pretty convinced the [annual] GA threat is strong for 2010. Propaganda perhaps?

Here, let me try:

"Sources close to the ALMS brass indicate the possibility exists for a significant number of LMP and GT cars to enter the series for 2011. Sources also suggest that in theory, the ALMS will have potential grids of 50-60 cars for 2011, as one source was overheard optimistically saying".

Time will tell, but I feel like we do this every year.

That's absolute crap. Are you looking at a Grand Am memorandum? I am.

I love you guys who don't know the difference between your own fantasy and what is actually going on in the sport. Actually, you remind me a lot of Scott Atherton.

[Purist]

Trouble is, TWK, we only have your word to take for it. By itself, that's NOT solid enough to rely on, now is it? In the end, until we SEE something OFFICIAL, it's just bloody hearsay, and I'm getting tired of all the crap being thrown around.

Either let the cat out of the bag, assuming you have it, or quit talking like you're God, or like you have His direct line.

Trahsub was simply doing what he feels you're doing. He's just saying stuff; he wasn't making an outright assertion that it was propaganda, but all of this IS getting REALLY old. Of course, what he said has no substantiation, but then again, it LOOKS LIKE yours doesn't either. If I had to use an analogy, TWK, I'd say you're just acting like the big bully on the playground who's having himself a ball playing keep-away (with this memo at the moment), simply because he can.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Purist

Trouble is, TWK, we only have your word to take for it. By itself, that's NOT solid enough to rely on, now is it? In the end, until we SEE something OFFICIAL, it's just bloody hearsay, and I'm getting tired of all the crap being thrown around.

Either let the cat out of the bag, assuming you have it, or quit talking like you're God, or like you have His direct line.

Trahsub was simply doing what he feels you're doing. He's just saying stuff; he wasn't making an outright assertion that it was propaganda, but all of this IS getting REALLY old. Of course, what he said has no substantiation, but then again, it LOOKS LIKE yours doesn't either. If I had to use an analogy, TWK, I'd say you're just acting like the big bully on the playground who's having himself a ball playing keep-away (with this memo at the moment), simply because he can.

L.P.

[6157]

Originally Posted by TWK

Let us know when you contribute anything original or useful to the knowledge of this sport or any part of it.

I have an entire decade of articles and reports, literally thousands. And you point to?

I'm done with your waste of good time.

You call writing slanderous rumors contributing to the sport? You call writing stories on how the sport is going down the tubes contributing? You do every thing in your power to call attention to every single negative aspect of the ALMS right now and you call that a contribution to what? It's a contribution to your ego. That's all it is.

In the interest of full disclosure, we should note that you only write for websites YOU own. How hard is it to give YOURSELF a job and declare YOURSELF a credible source? Not very hard at all, it seems.