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Old 5 Feb 2005, 21:12 (Ref:1218408)   #1
anthony81901
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2 Aussie Drivers in All Time Top 20

UK magazine 'Motorsport' in their February edition have listed the all time top 20 saloon / touring car drivers of all time as follows:

1. Steve Soper
2. Peter Brock
3. Andy Rouse
4. Alain Menu
5. Bernd Schneider
6. Frank Gardner
7. Roberto Ravaglia
8. Gerry Marshall
9. Jim Clark
10. John Cleland
11. Gabriele Tarquini
12. Klaus Ludwig
13. Laurent Aiello
14. Dieter Quester
15. Hans Stuck Jnr
16. Jo Winkelhock
17. Jack Sears
18. Rickard Rydell
19. Frank Biela
=20. Brian Muir
=20. Nicola Larini

It mentions Colin Bond, Dick Johnson, Larry Perkins, Jim Richards and Mark Skaife as worthy contenders. I would have thought Klaus Neidzweidz and Win Percy would have been included, particuarly as they were among the few European drivers who actually mastered Mt Panorama. The article described Bathurst as the world's biggest touring car event.

Couldn't really work out how Steve Soper won, but I guess it is a Pommy mag. The piece on Gardner concentrated on his UK efforts in the mid 70's, while for Brock stated that with little doubt he would have been a force in European motorsport had he chosen to go down that path, which apart from the Bob Jane Porsche in 84 and the 86 HDT campaign he did very little of.

The article also described Bathurst as the world's most important touring car award. See related thread in WTCC & European Touring Cars section.
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Old 5 Feb 2005, 22:13 (Ref:1218432)   #2
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peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
im just asking because he was before my time really, although i have seen him drive

what has colin bond done in his career to get him a mention
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Old 5 Feb 2005, 22:25 (Ref:1218437)   #3
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Colin Bond won Bathurst in 69 and drove for the HDT up until 75 i think. He then was involved in the famous Alan Moffat 1-2. Colin also drove Sierras and some Porsche cars for Alan Hamilton. He was also a very good rally driver.
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Old 5 Feb 2005, 22:29 (Ref:1218441)   #4
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peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
thanks pete any ATCC championships or similar?
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Old 5 Feb 2005, 23:03 (Ref:1218448)   #5
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2 Aussies in the top 10, not bad!
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Old 5 Feb 2005, 23:55 (Ref:1218477)   #6
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thanks pete any ATCC championships or similar?
1969 Bathurst, and 1975 ATCC if memory serves me correctly
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 00:46 (Ref:1218511)   #7
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Here's the link to thread in the European/BTCC Touring Car forum
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64836

'Motorsport' is one of may favourite mags, just a pity it takes 2 months to get here.....

I've been over it in the other thread, but to give this thread some substance to keep going , basically;

I can't understand how Jim Clark, John Cleland, Rickard Rydell or Nicola Larini made the list.

I can't understand how the likes of Tom Walkinshaw, Win Percy, Sigi Muller Snr, Klaus Neidzweidz and Emmanuelle Pirro didn't make the list.

The number of Australians on the list (aside from internationals who made the list, Frank Gardner and Brian Muir) was always going to be limited due to the lack of international running that alot of our drivers have had in touring cars, especially nowadays due to our unique rules. It is very hard to judge how good our touring car drivers are nowadays, the internationals coming over to run at Sandown and Bathurst nowadays is not accurate representation of the level of the drivers, as they don't get much time in the cars.
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 00:56 (Ref:1218517)   #8
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John Cleland spent 15 years + running against the top talent in the BTCC and ended up with 2 titles.... he is no slouch... and likely deserves his place, especially for his off-track quotability....

I wonder if they will add Mr Ambrose to this in a few years time, or will he have to continue to run in other one-offs (like the Daytona 24hr, which as at right now, his car is leading the GT class) in order to get noticed?
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 01:24 (Ref:1218525)   #9
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Cleland was only a regular though from about 1989 -1999 in the BTCC, and '89 and '90 were spent in lower class cars. His first title in 1989 was achieved only because of a points system which was awarded on class position, not outright position, and alot of the time in his class the only other entries for the round was other GM Dealersport Vauxhall Astra's.

He was very competitive from 1991-1995, but he spent the last 4 years tooling around in admittedly uncompetitive Vectra's, and by 1999 just wasn't interested (though that was helped by a certain Mr Muller)
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 01:39 (Ref:1218528)   #10
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But also ran in Thundersaloons, taking a title or two aboard an ex-HDT Bathurst VK....

Lets not forget MotorSport is UK based...
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 01:48 (Ref:1218529)   #11
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Certainly, but Thundersaloons weren't strictly Touring Cars were they, did produce some fantastic machinery though I will admit that there are drivers who i rate lower than Cleland in the list as well

anthony81901 - I missed this originally, but there are 3 Aussies in the list, not just 2.

2. Peter Brock

6. Frank Gardner

=20. Brian Muir
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 01:51 (Ref:1218530)   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRMagic
Lets not forget MotorSport is UK based...
That would explain the bias in listing Brock at only number 2!
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 02:13 (Ref:1218534)   #13
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Colin Bond

Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar
im just asking because he was before my time really, although i have seen him drive

what has colin bond done in his career to get him a mention
only driver to win Bathurst, ATCC & ARC:
Bathurst 69, ARC 71, 72, & 74, ATCC 75.

drove open wheelers & sports cars.

During Gr A he drove Alfas & Sierras at or near the front.
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 02:15 (Ref:1218536)   #14
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no rat?
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 02:24 (Ref:1218542)   #15
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no rat?
Or Matt Neal?????
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 03:55 (Ref:1218577)   #16
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really would have thought grice would have made the list as he could very often take it right up to the europeans.
etcc
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 04:01 (Ref:1218579)   #17
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Brocky should have been number 1. No one has dominated a single motor race let alone two (Bathurst and Sandown), just like he did.
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 04:33 (Ref:1218584)   #18
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peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
did you know ambrose has won 6 of the last 7 races at Eastern creek and put it on pole at the other race.
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 08:15 (Ref:1218626)   #19
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Originally Posted by Crowestar
Brocky should have been number 1. No one has dominated a single motor race let alone two (Bathurst and Sandown), just like he did.
Are you saying this is the primary reason Brocky should be #1 - surely performing on the world stage away from your own dung heap is what helps a drivers ranking.
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 08:44 (Ref:1218630)   #20
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Guys truely remember what some of these guys have done.

My jaw hit the ground when I saw where they put Aiello. The man is one brilliant driver that can drive front and rear drive hard. The titles he gained.
"Turned up to the BTCC and they didnt see where he went"

I dont get this pro Peter Brock group. I not slaging off what he has done but think about it. It is only really local. Moffat was better internationally and same Gricey and Harvey. Peter really had the best cars and backing. Then think of the ATCC and he wasnt always there. <DJ more titles and no factory support for along time>

Any way the list is pretty well done good to see Jimmy Clark there!!!!! The master of a Cortina at Brands.

Racer 69 if you go to www.pitstop.net.au you will beale to get a copy of motorsport posted to you that comes to australia viar air mail. The artical about the RS500 cossie and BMW M3 is classic!

RS500 passing Formula 3000 down Hanger Straight!!!!!!!!!!! 550bhp On Nine inch rubber! those where the days!
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 08:47 (Ref:1218632)   #21
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Cavvy, in a perfect world you would be correct... but with this - and any other Top ## poll - a driver's public image and following are probably as important a factor (or two) as his ability and his achievements... if you were able to evaluate each driver's best day in equal gear on driving talent alone, the results would be easy to judge... and I don't think given the best day in equal gear, that Brock could ever shade Pete Geoghegan. Then, if you throw in achievemnts outside a particular series or discpipline, you start factoring in the Moffats, Richardses Perkinses etc etc....

Each of the drivers on this (or any other Top ##) list will be remembered for different reasons, by different people. The only way to gain any great agreement on this one would be to say that it is a list of 20 great touring car stars... and then leave it at that.
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 08:53 (Ref:1218634)   #22
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Originally Posted by cavvy
Are you saying this is the primary reason Brocky should be #1 - surely performing on the world stage away from your own dung heap is what helps a drivers ranking.
1977 Kings Cup at Spa 24hr (3rd outright), Porsche 956, BMW CSL, MHDT to Europe in 1986 & 1987, Nissan Mobil series in NZ plus the local racing... in Commodores, Sierras, BMW, Monaro, Volvo & Vauxhall SuperTourers... sports sedans etc etc

PB belongs in the list...
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 09:36 (Ref:1218643)   #23
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic
1977 Kings Cup at Spa 24hr (3rd outright), Porsche 956, BMW CSL, MHDT to Europe in 1986 & 1987, Nissan Mobil series in NZ plus the local racing... in Commodores, Sierras, BMW, Monaro, Volvo & Vauxhall SuperTourers... sports sedans etc etc

PB belongs in the list...
Thank you, well said. I reckon Brock came 2nd at Spa in '77, could stand corrected though. He was quicker than Gerry Marshall who was also on the list. Didn't they run most of the race on intermediates in pouring rain because they couldn't get any wet tires or something.
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"It was dry for the second go-around. Grice, nervous, worrying about his Bathurst jinx, ran 2:25.9. The amazing Brock, using every last centimetre of bitumen, yet keeping the car straight and balanced and at full noise, came back with a staggering 2:20.0 as if to say: "Match that". And people just shook their heads, bit their lips and wondered who would be second".

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Old 6 Feb 2005, 10:37 (Ref:1218661)   #24
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1969 Bathurst, and 1975 ATCC if memory serves me correctly
Yep your pretty much right GTR, I was thinking the same! Plus Bondy nearly won Bathurst in 1977 too as I recall, He lost by about a half car length!
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Old 6 Feb 2005, 11:31 (Ref:1218682)   #25
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What about 1976? Who won that race now?
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