Lister Hybrid

[Bentley03]

The old car (same tub though) looked very promising in 2004, again not the quickest, but it ran at a more than respectable pace. There is something fundamentally wrong with the design of the hybrid though. It would take someone who knows about these things to pinpoint where it's gone wrong but it definitely lacks the pace that an LMP1 hybrid should be achieving.

I've got a real softspot for Lister, I like the sound of the engine and I admire Laurence Pearce's tenacity. Should they be at Le Mans at the expense of another(?), probably not, but I'm glad they are!

[ss_collins]

they are staying in the hotel next door - maybe I'll get em in the bar and explain it

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

they are staying in the hotel next door - maybe I'll get em in the bar and explain it

You've got a week to get that car sorted, Sam (cue the theme music to mission impossible..........)!!!

[AMT]

The maximum speeds tell a good deal about what's wrong - 302kph, slower than the fastest LMP2. The car had a major power deficit from the beginning, but pulled 320kph. Now it apparently has a drag surplus as well (despite Lister's claim that the hybrid shape had less drag than the original).

[gwyllion]

In the report of the test day, they indeed mention problems with the aero and engine.

There have been aerodynamic changes to the LMP since Spa so on Nicolas’s first couple of laps the handling was not correct – Laurence made the changes and the car was handling well; the car now has the downforce and we would work on adjustments to reduce the drag. Nicolas went out again but half way round the car cut out on track – a failure with the crank sensor. The car was not brought back to the pits until the lunch hour, so an hour was lost.

...

We were going to change the engine after this test, so, as soon as all the drivers had spent some time in the car, we ran some different engine set-ups which had worked on the dyno but, unfortunately, one of these changes resulted in a small engine failure – so the day finished for us at 5pm.

[TheNewBob]

The car will be outlawed at the end of this year anyway - maybe they should focus their efforts more on a new LMP1 for next year?

Personally, I'd like to see a new GT1 car from them - but I'd generally doubt if they'd bother with that lovely Jaguar V12 anymore (I can't help but love the sound the Storm GT used to make!). But I'm guessing an LMP project would be somewhat cheaper for them.

Maybe they should go LMP2...?

Their lack of pace is mysterious, saddening and difficult to watch (as a huge Lister fan).

[WouterM]

What is it that Lister do exactly? Is this LMP project their only business right now? From what I understand they only built three Storm road cars.

[Nordic]

http://www.listercars.co.uk/

Their web page makes no referance to anything other than the race team now.
They used to tune Jag XJS's etc and make and sell the storm as a road car, not sure many ever made it onto the road.

Hopefully the team will find a bit of extra pace for the race and make it to the finish

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by AMT

The maximum speeds tell a good deal about what's wrong - 302kph, slower than the fastest LMP2. The car had a major power deficit from the beginning, but pulled 320kph. Now it apparently has a drag surplus as well (despite Lister's claim that the hybrid shape had less drag than the original).

Maybe they should have stayed with the original designer's work and built upon that design to improve its performance...

Mr. Thorby is quite talented....

I'm sure you would agree, AMT....

[awegrzyn]

Mr. Thorby question.

I love his designs. I like the cars he builds (Lister, Panoz), but I see a negative performance pattern in his cars. Look what happened to that PanozLMP07. I was told by Panoz crew members in 2001 (USA, Ohio) that nothing worked on that car. The car just did not handle at all and it was somehow slow.

I would like to learn more about Mr. Thorby's projects and see if my theory holds true, but I see similiar behaviors between PanozLMP07 and Lister.

[skycafe]

You would think the money spent on all the changes may have been better spent on development of the original. Who did the design changes? Also, I would think that those became never ending as they were so radical in scope. They also always seem to have a crank sensor problem, or is that my imagination and bad memory at work?

I am glad they are there as I have liked them since seeing the Storm in the states in mid 90's. Only three road version were built? How many Storm race cars were there?

Also, was this Lister, or the original, ever affiliated with the the Marine Diesel company.

[jhansen]

The changes they've made seem to be almost at random. And I'm guessing that these changes are made without any wind-tunnel work. Although that's just a guess and maybe I'm wrong. But I agree that they should have stayed closer to the original design and just developed the car from there. Racing it as often as possible.

[AMT]

Originally Posted by awegrzyn

Mr. Thorby question.

I love his designs. I like the cars he builds (Lister, Panoz), but I see a negative performance pattern in his cars. Look what happened to that PanozLMP07. I was told by Panoz crew members in 2001 (USA, Ohio) that nothing worked on that car. The car just did not handle at all and it was somehow slow.

I would like to learn more about Mr. Thorby's projects and see if my theory holds true, but I see similiar behaviors between PanozLMP07 and Lister.

The LMP07 certainly was a nightmare. However, it did handle, up until the time my contract ended. In fact, the drivers were very enthusiastic about it - but enthusiasm dies when things (such as gearbox-related things...) keep breaking. And it suffered from a lack of power and torque, partly due to the engine and partly due to the gearbox, which absorbed way too much power.

The similarity between the Panoz and the Lister begins and ends with the fact that the performance of both cars deteriorated after my involvement ceased - a sad coincidence no doubt. However, the Lister was a much better design mainly because I had the control and the resources to do it right. I am totally confident that the car (not the engine, which was pretty feeble) was a match for anything at the time it was launched. As for subsequent Lister developments, I've had no input into them. I've been saddened but not surprised to see the decline in the car's competitiveness.

When you're commissioned purely to design a car, you have to accept that your reputation is to some degree at the mercy of those who race it and develop it subsequently.

[awegrzyn]

Mr. Thorby,

First, I freaked out reading your post. I would never think you post here. Now that I am smarter than I was few minutes ago, let me take advantage of the new knowledge and say few things.

The Panoz crew in Ohio (2001) blamed every component of Panoz07: breaks, gearbox, steering, engine, handling, etc. They told me the car is very good and handles well on very smooth surface, but that’s about it. That is why 07 did well in Texas that year.

I agree with you that the designer of the car should not take full responsibility for the car’s performance. The development team, budget, drivers, and other factors should be responsible for the car’s performance as well. Therefore, it is possible to design a great car and “damage” the car with the wrong package and wrong development.

Having said that I disagree with you on one issue. Your cars are very radical and unique visually and aerodynamically. Since they are so different would you agree that by achieving beautiful design you sacrifice somewhere in performance? Since I know nothing about designing cars I could be incorrect in my theory, but this is the reasoning that made me write the previous post.

All this is very important to me, because my brother and I want to enter a prototype series using a car build by our company here in NY (will happen for sure). Your design talent fits our idea and we were hoping to work with you in the future.

For now good luck in all your missions and enjoy the Le Mans this year.

[ss_collins]

andy can you drop me an e-mail

sam_collins@ipcmedia.com

we might be able to help each other out

Sam - Deputy Editor, Racecar Engineering

[jhansen]

I liked the original design. It had a very menacing look.

Out of curiousity AMT if you don't mind, what engine would you have preferred for the Lister? Was the gearbox done in-house?

[AMT]

jhansen - I supported the use of the Chevy in the Lister. It was a proven endurance motor, with widely-available and economical tuning parts. We redesigned the sump and moved the pumps to lower it in the chassis by (IIRC) 35mm and close-couple it to the chassis. It was a very neat installation. Unfortunately, the development necessary to adapt it to the LMP capacity and rev range proved too much for Lister, who wanted to do it in-house. The gearbox in the Lister is a Hewland unit, and has (AFAIK) been fine. Maybe you're confusing it with the LMP07, which used an Xtrac box, which wasn't so fine...

awegrzyn - true enough, many things broke on the LMP07. The chief cause was the vibration of the engine, which was so serious that no-one expected it. Zytek's theory was since, because of the front engine, the clutch was at the end of a long driveline, resonance in that driveline increased the vibration. Whatever, it was so bad it caused the nosebox fixings (which were the proven, F1-style, snail-cam type) to come open after one lap! The other major issue was the gearbox and its ancillaries. But to answer your question - being radical can bring problems unless you have the back-up to do it properly: this was my mistake with the LMP07 - I overreached.

[ss_collins]

and it seems that Lister have done so too.

I find the radiator arrangement on the hybrid hard to understand - I think Mulsannemike may use some pic I took yesterday of it

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

and it seems that Lister have done so too.

I find the radiator arrangement on the hybrid hard to understand - I think Mulsannemike may use some pic I took yesterday of it

Indeed...if I can find someone to explain to me what they are doing there!

[The Badger]

I personally feel that Laurence Pearce is making his company look like fools . They keep saying that this new mod will work and that this is a powerful car . Its playing around with the GT1 timewise at LM .
Then they turn up at Spa with a differant nose aero and that it cant be changed at the track . Why not if its only aero ?
As for their straight line speed and lap times , they look a joke . Im not impressed at all . While i respect their perserverance and their past results , they are just a shadow of themselves ..... imo .

[ss_collins]

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/news.html

can anyone figure this out?

[WouterM]

It looks like something they have worked on for quite some time. At Istanbul they ran the practice sessions without and then added the covers for the qualifying and for the race. At Spa it was the other way around. To me it looks like a desperate measure to decrease drag, but I doubt it is much good for cooling. Here are two shots from Istanbul; before and after:

[WouterM]

They must have like the results and incorporated them in the new nose for Le Mans.

[gwyllion]

They have had so many changes this year, so they must be experiencing some problems (front downforce, drag).

• LMES Silverstone (08/2005): http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsaugust05.html
• testing Snetterton (02/2006): http://www.mdh-photography.co.uk/Gal...02%5F06/album/
• Dunlop tyre testing Estoril (03/2006): http://www.the-paddock.net/index.php...k=view&id=1268

From then on they sticked to this design of the front, but they were slow (compared to other LMP1 car) at Paul Richard LMS test days, Istanbul, Spa and now Le Mans.

[ss_collins]

big rad too...