"Daytona Prototypes is the greatest road racing in the United States"

[SebringMG]

Nope - but your missing the point of my post!

Not going to comment much on DP much because the races are not shown here on any TV channels i care to own! But have to say from the little i have seen over the internet the racing is a little contrived for entertainment purposes!!

Is this a problem? Not really they know there market and realise that they are not so interested in motorsports per se but more in pure entertainment!! The two series appeal to different people - the casual viewer more to GA while petrolheads are attracted to ALMS.

Both are the best in terms of their respective markets. Neither is competing against each other directly and should keep it that way!!

Besides it is all irrelevant anyway as everybody knows that the best racing is in historics anyway :P

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

The two series appeal to different people - the casual viewer more to GA while petrolheads are attracted to ALMS.

Very very true. And good post btw. The day ALMS get their act together and gets the serie working as it always should have been (by 2011 maybe, with the new LMP and GT classes) I belive the racing will be better then in Rolex, and ALMS will get the upper hand, as it attracts both of those categories of viewers. Up till then however, Rolex will keep working their way, and maybe they will be out of reach by 2011, or they wont be, time will tell.

Just to say, I'm a fan of both, and not baised. As Porsche is in both...

And why not a Grand-Am vs ALMS thread? THe topic, and original post, suggest it should be. If Grand-Am isnt the best, what do we compare to? Surely ALMS is by far the closest to compare to.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Andy Flinn

Bob:

Best manufacturer?

Grand-Am is the greatest road racing in the U.S. because one manufacturer (Audi, Porsche, Corvette) doesn't win everything.

The ALMS GT2 class is good racing because Ferrari, Porsche and the Panoz actually compete for wins. Even the ALMS LMP2 class is dominated by Penske Porsches (9 wins in ten races).

If you think DP is spec (Riley, Crawford, Fabcar, Chase, Multimatic; Pontiac, Lexus, Porsche, Ford, BMW, Porsche; Dallara, Lola, etc.), obviously, you don't watch the races.

When all cars are reduced to the same putt-putt level, they are all the same putt-putt spec. without regard to what is under the hood. (of course when a series is inspired by NASCAR, some teams get to be a putt-putt-putt team, a under the shelve putt always helps) At least a true spec. series doesn't pretend to be something it is not.

But as I said, gear-heads know what is real, and with all its faults IMSA is the only show out there now.
If drivers are one's thing, GARRA is fine.
Bob

[Danske]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Speaking of next year, anyone seen any pictures of the Lolas, Dallaras and all those new designes yet? Or wont we see them until after Daytona...

Nothing I've seen yet. Assuming Sabre wants to take a crack at the 24 they should show up at one or both of the two tests previous. Some aspects of the new Crawford have reportedly already tested at Daytona during the season, so they may show up at the tests as well. I'd assume some renderings at least would come out before the season. SEMA's coming up too, but that's a more likely venue for GT presentations; hopefully we'll find out what the reality of the Ford rumor is then.

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

And what Porsche engines/teams will there be? All running the old flat-6 exept the one team running the Cayenne V8 (that I cant remember the name of sadly)?

Haven't heard any rumors of new Porsche teams with either of those engines, although understandably SoD would like some other team to pick up the V8 as well. Related to this, the 58 Porsche Riley was statistically the quickest car at Miller over multiple laps, so the flat-six isn't apparently a lame duck.

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Why the sigh?

Because I've seen more repetitions of Bob's driver worship rant than I'm guessing you have, was not enjoying yet another refrain, and sighing often accompanies exasperation.

Anyway, as an on-topic analogy, I can think of several ways to evaluate a dramatic movie: as a technical example of the art form, i.e. its cinematography, directing, acting, editing, sound track, effects, costuming, makeup, etc.; as an exercise in storytelling independent of the media; and just as entertainment. There's no absolute, universal weight to give each of those aspects, and the last is highly subjective anyway, so there's no one measure of a movie's quality; it's going to come down to what one personally, subjectively is looking for or enjoys in a movie.

[schiattarella]

can someone give me an idea of a lap time diff between-
DP v.s LMP1 & LMP2
DP v.s GT1 & GT2

Also are budgets a lot higher to compete in ALMS (in any class) and does anyone know the approx figures for budgets for either? both series seem to be doing well which is great for drivers as there's not many places you can have a career once you've been though the ladder...

[Zurbert82]

Originally Posted by schiattarella

can someone give me an idea of a lap time diff between-
DP v.s LMP1 & LMP2
DP v.s GT1 & GT2

Also are budgets a lot higher to compete in ALMS (in any class) and does anyone know the approx figures for budgets for either? both series seem to be doing well which is great for drivers as there's not many places you can have a career once you've been though the ladder...

DP's are between GT1 and GT2 while running on the same track, while the teams budgets probably aren't that much less than ALMS, if not equal.

[schiattarella]

Originally Posted by Zurbert82

DP's are between GT1 and GT2 while running on the same track, while the teams budgets probably aren't that much less than ALMS, if not equal.

Okay thanks i would've thought them to be quicker. what is the HP output of DP's compared to GT1 & 2? also any idea's on budget figures in more detail?

[Speed-King]

I read that Krohn racing spent about 6 Million Dollar in 2006 for their championship winning two car effort in Grand Am.
Horsepower-wise DPs are probably as well between GT1 and 2...

[AU N EGL]

Both series race on Mid-Ohio, Miller Motor Sports Park ( Utah)

Mid Ohio ALMS qualifying times
http://www.americanlemans.com/Compet...OhioQualifying

Mid Ohio Grand AM qualifying times
http://www.grand-am.com/Events/Sessi...?SessionID=908

Utah ALMS quaffing times
http://www.americanlemans.com/Compet...UtahQualifying

Utah Grand AM quaffing times
http://www.grand-am.com/Events/Sessi...?SessionID=988

The top few Grand AM DPs are just slightly faster in qualifying then ALMS GT2s.

At Utah the Grand AM DPs were 20sec / lap slower then the Penske Porsche's and at Mid-Ohio the Grand AM DPs were 10sec / lap slower then the Penske Porsche's.

So to keep on original Topic, NO Grand AM is not the greatest road racing in the US. It is Very Good, but not the greatest.

[JAG]

From what I've seen Grand AM has some very good racing, though I've only seen highlight shows.

For it to be the best however the cars have to be cool.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Both series race on Mid-Ohio, Miller Motor Sports Park ( Utah)

Mid Ohio ALMS qualifying times
http://www.americanlemans.com/Compet...OhioQualifying

Mid Ohio Grand AM qualifying times
http://www.grand-am.com/Events/Sessi...?SessionID=908

Here are the prototype and open wheel qualifying times at Mid-Ohio this year compiled into a single table.

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...id=72&Itemid=1

[Zytek_Fan]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Both series race on Mid-Ohio, Miller Motor Sports Park ( Utah)

Mid Ohio ALMS qualifying times
http://www.americanlemans.com/Compet...OhioQualifying

Mid Ohio Grand AM qualifying times
http://www.grand-am.com/Events/Sessi...?SessionID=908

Utah ALMS quaffing times
http://www.americanlemans.com/Compet...UtahQualifying

Utah Grand AM quaffing times
http://www.grand-am.com/Events/Sessi...?SessionID=988

The top few Grand AM DPs are just slightly faster in qualifying then ALMS GT2s.

At Utah the Grand AM DPs were 20sec / lap slower then the Penske Porsche's and at Mid-Ohio the Grand AM DPs were 10sec / lap slower then the Penske Porsche's.

So to keep on original Topic, NO Grand AM is not the greatest road racing in the US. It is Very Good, but not the greatest.

That's why the Shiden is allowed to race in GT300 in Super GT. (it's basically a modified Riley DP with a Honda engine)

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by TWK

Here are the prototype and open wheel qualifying times at Mid-Ohio this year compiled into a single table.

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...id=72&Itemid=1

Good info.

[FLGTFAN]

I think Grand-Am has done a remarkable job of creating a series of closely-matched cars and interesting races, and I enjoy it for that. Where it falls flat for me is in exciting the senses. One of the few inspiring sounds in GA right now is the Mazda RX-8 rotary, but for the most part, Daytona Prototypes are uninspiring V-8's. GT's are mostly uninspiring V8's and sixes.

The most exciting DP to date was the high-reving Porsche Fabcar six that Brumos (and others) ran through 2005. That car, although fragile, captured the raw excitement that I have come to expect from great sports car racing.

I just cannot easily accept that the details do not matter because the racing is close.

[chocmonster7]

What annoys me about GA vs ALMS is the attitude that there can only be one series in each branch of motorsport. It's the same with IRL vs Champcar.

I don't know if it's an American thing as in Europe we manage to have FIA GT, LMS and various national sportscar series yet don't seem to have these kinds of arguments.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by chocmonster7

What annoys me about GA vs ALMS is the attitude that there can only be one series in each branch of motorsport. It's the same with IRL vs Champcar.

I don't know if it's an American thing as in Europe we manage to have FIA GT, LMS and various national sportscar series yet don't seem to have these kinds of arguments.

Very good point. YES there can be two or more prototype racing series.

Plus look at all the pro drivers in sports car racing who now GET paid to race, vs having to PAY to drive.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by chocmonster7

What annoys me about GA vs ALMS is the attitude that there can only be one series in each branch of motorsport. It's the same with IRL vs Champcar.

I don't know if it's an American thing as in Europe we manage to have FIA GT, LMS and various national sportscar series yet don't seem to have these kinds of arguments.

It's less an attitude than an economic fact, in my opinion, since we are talking in the case of CCWS, IRL, GARRA, and ALMS about professional level racing that's expensive by nature (yes, even GARRA) and requires sponsors, fans, television, etc. You can have as many county fair bullring racing series, club racing, feeder, and other such series as you want (and we (north) "Americans" have plenty - far more than in Europe, by the way), but those "top levels" require m-o-n-e-y to survive. When so large a portion of that is being soaked up by s single kind of racing with multiple series, then yes, it will be difficult for OW and sports car racing to survive and thrive with more than one "major league" series.

More complete in: Survival of the Dwarfs: Auto Racing in North America

[Speed-King]

Is the GARRA-ALMS situation comparable with the Trans/Am-IMSA situation back when T/A still was a force to be reckoned?

Or were these two series two different to be rivals?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Is the GARRA-ALMS situation comparable with the Trans/Am-IMSA situation back when T/A still was a force to be reckoned?

Or were these two series two different to be rivals?

In the seventies a Trans-Am competitor could run an IMSA event with few problems; IMSA allowed more radical mods, so for an IMSA team to go to the Trans-Am could mean, but not absolutely mean, undoing some mods on the car, but nothing that could not be switched back and forth.

In the eightes, the tube frame GTO cars could switch back and forth if desired, but they both supported each other as teams could and did run both series.

How much interchange depended on the year in reference, as rule were wonderfully fluid.
Bob
PS-THere may have been an example I have forgotten but until the eighties at least, any "equalization" that went on did not mean slowing anyone down, it meant rules adaptations that let the slow guys go faster and quicker.
The cars from year to year were generally quicker, faster and went farther. Some times greatly so, and some times barely so.
That is what racing is supposed to be and what is pathetically missing.

[Speed-King]

My question was - in response to TWK's last posting - more about the financial/sponsorship-side of two competing sportscar series, not so much about the interchangeability of cars, though.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

My question was - in response to TWK's last posting - more about the financial/sponsorship-side of two competing sportscar series, not so much about the interchangeability of cars, though.

In the business side, I believe that there are limited sources of funding for all professional sport. Although some sponsors gravitate to different sports because they believe the sport "fits" their product (Titleist to golf, Nike to basketball, Porsche to motorsports), many, if not most just go wherever the exposure and opportunities for hospitality is highest (BMW, Mercedes, Buick in golf).

NASCAR has been most successful in harnessing the combination of hospitality and advertising exposure in North America - in any sport - and to the extent that sponsors make choices between competing channels for their messages, yes, all motorsport (those that are at the level where significant financing is required - not club and amateur endeavors) competes for the same pool of cash.

It think it's naive to plead, "Why can't we all just get along?" and ask (rhetorically) "Why can't we have competing forms of motorsport?" (as if CCWS and IRL are competing "forms," which they are not.) The fact is that companies sponsoring Grand Am teams and ALMS teams do so in competing "leagues" when they could be doing so in the same "league." Some make a choice, "one or the other, but not both." That's a fact, though I won't name names.

[AU N EGL]

Many of the teams start out with the team principle's business sponsoring the team.

Example:

Bob Stallings Gansco team. Mr. Stallings is the 2nd largest stock holder and Senior VP of Gansco Insurance and Co-founder of the Gansco company IIRC.

[jhansen]

I think you can argue that in North America outside of NASCAR, the rest of the national racing series out there are competing for the left overs in terms of sponsorship money. AMA, ALMS, GARRA, IRL, CCWS, NHRA, etc.

However, this is all getting off topic a bit. Lets keep the discussion and comparison (when applicable) to the on track product.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by TWK

It think it's naive to plead, "Why can't we all just get along?" and ask (rhetorically) "Why can't we have competing forms of motorsport?" (as if CCWS and IRL are competing "forms," which they are not.) The fact is that companies sponsoring Grand Am teams and ALMS teams do so in competing "leagues" when they could be doing so in the same "league." Some make a choice, "one or the other, but not both." That's a fact, though I won't name names.

Umm, yeah. But hasn't there been a history of competing sports car (or touring car for that matter) series in Europe and the US?
Trans/Am and IMSA, LMS and FIA-GT, Trans/Am and Can Am, DRM and WCM.
I know the situation may have changed with NASCAR becoming the 800 pound Gorilla it is today, but I think history shows us that two series can coexist, when they are different enough. We talked in an other thread about how GARRA and ALMS appeal to different demographics and how that shows in the sponsorship of the cars.
Maybe if GARRA occupies the niché that is elsewhere occupied by touring car racing (i.e. fender banging, involvement ofmainstream manufacturers and so on...), they can coexist.

[Zytek_Fan]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Umm, yeah. But hasn't there been a history of competing sports car (or touring car for that matter) series in Europe and the US?
Trans/Am and IMSA, LMS and FIA-GT, Trans/Am and Can Am, DRM and WCM.
I know the situation may have changed with NASCAR becoming the 800 pound Gorilla it is today, but I think history shows us that two series can coexist, when they are different enough. We talked in an other thread about how GARRA and ALMS appeal to different demographics and how that shows in the sponsorship of the cars.
Maybe if GARRA occupies the niché that is elsewhere occupied by touring car racing (i.e. fender banging, involvement ofmainstream manufacturers and so on...), they can coexist.

You make an excellent point. Rolex is a lot like touring car racing which appeals more to the casual viewer and ALMS appeals more to the hard core petrol head. Although attendance at ALMS races is a lot better...