'09 ALMS Round 8 • Mosport, Aug. 27th - 30th

[broadrun96]

ethanol has 34% less energy per unit and so reduced MPG (about 50%), but this can be solved with higher compression ratios. In fact according to a MIT study, turbo engines can actually be made more efficient and develop a power curve similar to engines twice their size on E50-E85. If engines do not have the higher compression to make use of the 105-130 octane for E85, detonation and crappy mileage can make the engine worthless for both street and race use. Apparently high percentage ethanol, E90+, can be burned in a diesel style and has been used in Sweden for buses.
I'm guessing the E85 engines have been modified to make use of this high compression and so that may not be the problem for the MZR-R. The plumbing on the other hand may not be up to the task, even E25 supposedly can destroy a straight gas/petrol engine's fuel system and make every seal and gasket leak and etch the injectors. I'm not sure how it works on carbs, have seen a car show they used an E85 safe system but they didn't say anything about it that I remember.

[HORNDAWG]

Ethanol vs gasoline (petrol) has many variables. Ethanol actually burns cooler than petrol and extends the range until detonation. Also, even though there is less potential energy in ethonal, by volume, it can be run at a higher compression ratio than petrol because of the extended range and therefore produces more usable energy by volume. It seems backwards but... The biggest problem with running E-85 (or any ethonal/blend) is running it to lean. It takes higher fuel to air ratio(s) than petrol so as not to run it to lean and burn up the engine.

Hope this helps some.





L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

ethanol has 34% less energy per unit and so reduced MPG (about 50%), but this can be solved with higher compression ratios. In fact according to a MIT study, turbo engines can actually be made more efficient and develop a power curve similar to engines twice their size on E50-E85. If engines do not have the higher compression to make use of the 105-130 octane for E85, detonation and crappy mileage can make the engine worthless for both street and race use. Apparently high percentage ethanol, E90+, can be burned in a diesel style and has been used in Sweden for buses.
I'm guessing the E85 engines have been modified to make use of this high compression and so that may not be the problem for the MZR-R. The plumbing on the other hand may not be up to the task, even E25 supposedly can destroy a straight gas/petrol engine's fuel system and make every seal and gasket leak and etch the injectors. I'm not sure how it works on carbs, have seen a car show they used an E85 safe system but they didn't say anything about it that I remember.

I do not agree with the % #s, they seem a little high to me.

As to the plumbing, yes there are major differences in material that have to be used for the e-85.



L.P.

[Leighton Irwin]

I have no experience with ethanol in race engines but I do have with its cousin methanol.
Running methanol on Weber carbs we increased the fuel jets by close to 50% and used 50% more fuel. I cannot remember the change to the air correction jets. Running lean would detonate a piston very quickly. You also had to add a synthetic oil (or Castrol R, loved the smell) to the fuel to avoid complete wash down of the cylinders. Regular oil would not work as it would not mix with methanol and it would be the same with ethanol, regular oil being mineral and the other vegetable based or synthetic. The use of a percentage of gasoline probably eliminates this problem. Methanol attacks rubber so all fuel lines etc. had to be neoprene based. I expect ethanol is the same. Fuel bladders may have to be a different composition than normal. Methanol and I expect ethanol also attacks aluminum. When we ran Webers, before we switched to injection I drilled the bottom of the carbs and installed radiator drain petcocks so we could dump the methanol from the carbs after running. Race check list included making sure they had been closed again!
We also ran some Acetone in the mix especially in cold weather to make starting easier. That we kept that secret from the others! We often, in cold weather, had to spray gas into the injectors to get the engine to fire.
The addition of a percentage of gas would ease this starting problem and ignition systems have improved over the last few years.
As an aside two stroke engines DO NOT like ethanol. We used to be in the tree stump removal business and knew all the tree companies. When using gas with 10% ethanol they started blowing up their chain saws.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Leighton Irwin

I have no experience with ethanol in race engines but I do have with its cousin methanol.
Running methanol on Weber carbs we increased the fuel jets by close to 50% and used 50% more fuel. I cannot remember the change to the air correction jets. Running lean would detonate a piston very quickly. You also had to add a synthetic oil (or Castrol R, loved the smell) to the fuel to avoid complete wash down of the cylinders. Regular oil would not work as it would not mix with methanol and it would be the same with ethanol, regular oil being mineral and the other vegetable based or synthetic. The use of a percentage of gasoline probably eliminates this problem. Methanol attacks rubber so all fuel lines etc. had to be neoprene based. I expect ethanol is the same. Fuel bladders may have to be a different composition than normal. Methanol and I expect ethanol also attacks aluminum. When we ran Webers, before we switched to injection I drilled the bottom of the carbs and installed radiator drain petcocks so we could dump the methanol from the carbs after running. Race check list included making sure they had been closed again!
We also ran some Acetone in the mix especially in cold weather to make starting easier. That we kept that secret from the others! We often, in cold weather, had to spray gas into the injectors to get the engine to fire.
The addition of a percentage of gas would ease this starting problem and ignition systems have improved over the last few years.
As an aside two stroke engines DO NOT like ethanol. We used to be in the tree stump removal business and knew all the tree companies. When using gas with 10% ethanol they started blowing up their chain saws.

Methanol is more corrosive than ethanol but ALL alcohols are corrosive.

Alcohol in gasoline is very hard on small engines, boat motors, lawn mowers, snowmobiles so in Minn. gas stations have the option of having a straight gasoline pump for such engines.

Alcohol, due to chemistry, will separate from the gasoline, even at ten percent but at higher percentage it can happen very easily, causing very poor running to actual engine damage as the engine is getting a fuel it is not set-up for.
Some of the newest street engines have a computer function that continually monitors the fuel composition to adjust fuel mixture.

In Minn. in the winter e85 becomes e70 due tp the poor cold weather starting qualities of alcohol.

Thirty percent is a number most often quoted, but 34 percent may be the exact number.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Francesco

i'll try to give some sort of explanation

E85 is difficult to manage, more ethanol can lead to biggest "detonations" (... sorry for my english but i am not sure that's the right word for what i want to mean... ) problems which is very bad especially on turbo engines (just look at MZR-R)


E10 meaning that has 10 parts of ethanol and 90 parts of "normal fuel" has less detonation problems but also gives little less horsepower and better fuel economy

E85 with 85 parts of ethanol and 15 parts of fuel has more detonation problems, less fuel efficency but little more horsepower given by the fact that ethanol has more "explosive" power than normal fuel

am i right?

The MZR-R engine runs on E10 NOT E85 (in the ALMS). Its detonation problems are the fault of a two-bit (that's overvaluing it) engine managment system self-developed by AER on the cheap.

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

You do realize that the corvette uses E85 Ethanol fule compared to e10 for the other GT2's

E85 doesn't make the engine perform worse, the higher octane can even be used to raise compression ratio.

[ger80]

But if AER has a problem with the engine management, why dont they switch to a Bosch one?

[The Badger]

Why cant the team change the engine management system for a better unit ?

Or is it in the engine contract that they have to use a specified unit ?

[Dani Filth]

or .. do they use the same system on the AER badged 4pot engines too?

[TWK]

Originally Posted by ger80

But if AER has a problem with the engine management, why dont they switch to a Bosch one?

Expense. I'm told they've cobbled together their own.

[knighty]

yes it appears this engine is currently experiencing some development issues, some interesting snippets for you:

The AER "Life" ECU is not cobbled together, Mike Lancaster from AER actually founded Pectel who are THE motorsport ECU people in all forms of high level motorsport. He then set up AER and founded the Life range of ECU's, 3 years and 1 day later they then poached all the boffins from Pectel. Now the Life ECU systems are VERY well regarded in the race engine industry - I think hell will freeze over before they go knocking on Bosch's door

AER's main beef is with the quality of the fuel the ALMS supply, they map to one spec in the UK, turn up at the race in the US then notice the fuel grade has changed a bit then it causes big problems in the running of the engine......but you must say that does sound a bit like blamestorming from AER

Reading about what AER did at LeMans, it appears they are not shy to running specification changes which have not been fully durability tested.......hence RML's engine let go in the race, other teams rejected the spec change due to lack of durability testing........I'm therefore guessing that this latter approach is more the source of their problems.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by knighty

yes it appears this engine is currently experiencing some development issues, some interesting snippets for you:

The AER "Life" ECU is not cobbled together, Mike Lancaster from AER actually founded Pectel who are THE motorsport ECU people in all forms of high level motorsport. He then set up AER and founded the Life range of ECU's, 3 years and 1 day later they then poached all the boffins from Pectel. Now the Life ECU systems are VERY well regarded in the race engine industry - I think hell will freeze over before they go knocking on Bosch's door

AER's main beef is with the quality of the fuel the ALMS supply, they map to one spec in the UK, turn up at the race in the US then notice the fuel grade has changed a bit then it causes big problems in the running of the engine......but you must say that does sound a bit like blamestorming from AER

Reading about what AER did at LeMans, it appears they are not shy to running specification changes which have not been fully durability tested.......hence RML's engine let go in the race, other teams rejected the spec change due to lack of durability testing........I'm therefore guessing that this latter approach is more the source of their problems.

Hmm, it would appear that the ALMS fuel has been the same since prior to the '07 season. Here Except for the aberration at Petit last year. Here Which was rescinded after the race and before the Laguna race. Here So it would seem that Dawg don't hunt!





L.P.

[Graham Goodwin]

The ECU is the same unit used for a variety of other mainstream motorsport programmes, not least the RML-run Chevrolet WTCC programme - and they haven't had engine issues all season

[Jonerz]

But think about how much more highly stressed the AER four banger is in LMP2 form than the Chevy is in the WTCC program.

Chris

[cg7aa]

I thought Hindhaugh and Creamer did a fantastic job of conveying such a frantic race. I really enjoyed listening to it on my way to work and back last week (16 mile bike ride each way). Its a good thing my route takes me on some back country roads because I was vocally cheering on all sorts of drivers and cars and even punched the air once or twice involuntarily (Field's predictable early pace, De Ferran’s outside pass, Marino’s incredible stint, Melo's drive through the field etc etc). Had anyone seen me, they would have questioned my sanity!

I went through the whole range the emotions for Jon Field, Risi, Corvette and Dyson and still managed to average 13 mph on the bike.

It was such a fantastic race, before I knew it I was at work and all smiles. Not bad for a Monday morning.

The race on TV while good enough in its own right wasn't quite the same thrill. I guess knowing the outcome didn't help psychologically. Justin Bell reminds me of myself sometimes; I know what I wanna say but sometimes it comes out as a jumbled mess! Once or twice, I thought ‘what is he on about?’

[Jonerz]

Yeah, I agree 100% cg7aa. I haven't seen the race as I haven't got a DVR and I was working at Mosport that weekend. I find that Hindy is brilliant at conveying the excitement, heck radio is the theater of the mind!

Chris

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

But think about how much more highly stressed the AER four banger is in LMP2 form than the Chevy is in the WTCC program.

Chris

I can tell you that a very trustworthy source confirms that the ECU has not been an issue in Europe at all this season

[prototype]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

I can tell you that a very trustworthy source confirms that the ECU has not been an issue in Europe at all this season

Is it still the fuel quality Graham? I heard it was bad in the LMS, but I didn't think it was for the ALMS. Is the Dyson blow up at Mosport related to the same problems RML faced in Europe.

[ger80]

Dyson run on a fuel saving mapping as you could hear on tv. Just before the engine blow they talked about using another mapping because the engine run hot, but it was too late ...

[TWK]

In a highly-stressed engine, fuel lubricates and distributes the heat evenly through the cylinder. When running exessively lean, hot spots develop. Pretty soon you burn through the rings or the piston. Properly-designed engine control obviates such problems.