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View Poll Results: "ALL American cars are RUBBISH."
Yes they are 14 26.42%
No, of course not! 30 56.60%
I've never driven one so I wouldn't know. 9 16.98%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 27 May 2003, 18:27 (Ref:611709)   #51
garcon
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That really is terribly unfair, old boy. Not good sport at all!

When it came out the Austin Allegro was almost ground breaking. Granted - by its third incarnation it was dated, poorly built and completely outclassed by the Skoda Estelle.

The Morris Marina and Austin Princess were both decent cars. The Marina suffered cos it wasn't quite up to the Cortina - or at least wasn't as well marketed. But the Princess was a splendid thing, especially in Wolesey and 2.2 Vanden Plas form...

Once again, it was their final incarnations, as the Morris Ital and Austin Ambassador respectively, that were truly unforgiveable... Only after such vehicles as these could the Maestro and Montegro possibly have been seen as a 'huge leap forward'...

Last edited by garcon; 27 May 2003 at 18:28.
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Old 27 May 2003, 18:38 (Ref:611716)   #52
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Originally posted by garcon
You should havce a career in politics, young man!

But anyway, you're right - this IS the Road Car Forum. What on earth has (selective ) racing success got to do with the cars on US roads?

Ah - think I've just flipped sides! Tristan! You're no longer alone!

Two words: Chrysler Neon.
That's my fallback if motorsport doesn't work out.

So, which edition of the Neon were you driving? Because if you're comparing a base Neon to a Lancer Evo...
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Old 27 May 2003, 18:47 (Ref:611721)   #53
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Ok, I confess, never driven a Neon. But I did manage to break a significant bit of trim off one at the motor show...

However I have driven a base Mitsu Charisma, which is (very roughly) what they start with for the Evo. And that was truly awful. I mean - being Japanese everything worked and all that, but it was just depressing! It's the kind of car that shows you that Vauxhall/GM and Ford actually do a reasonably good job of getting the simple, basic things right on their repmobiles.

One thing for the Neon - it's relatively cheap here, so it competes (quite well) with Daewoos, Hyundais and Kias and such.
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Old 27 May 2003, 21:44 (Ref:611891)   #54
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Britain makes rubbish cars?? BRITAIN MAKES RUBBISH CARS??

Granted, ours is a cottage industry, but come on... we make some driver's cars!!

Name me an American car that can compare with this:
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Old 27 May 2003, 21:45 (Ref:611892)   #55
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Or this
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Old 27 May 2003, 21:51 (Ref:611896)   #56
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Or anything that looks anything like this!!
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Old 27 May 2003, 21:55 (Ref:611898)   #57
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Granted the last one is a lapse away from the out-and-out driver's car in its purest form, but still, there is NOTHING that the USA produces that comes vaguely near. I could go on and on and on. Radicals, Westfeilds, Nobles...


IN FACT -Spot challenge. Name me THREE American SPORTS cars (not necessarily pure driver's cars either) in current production and we shall debate as to whether or not their classification is justified.
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Old 27 May 2003, 21:56 (Ref:611902)   #58
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(got that Caterham looks fabulous, doesn't it?? 500bhp/tonne!!! )

(that being said, the 'Vette does have a mighty 273bhp/t)
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Old 27 May 2003, 22:04 (Ref:611906)   #59
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How about this?
http://www.panozauto.com/esperante/hi-res/006.jpg

(shame about the stupid name!)

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Old 27 May 2003, 22:13 (Ref:611909)   #60
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I'm on a promise - I've been told I can have the keys to a 1971 Ford Mustang Mach 1, and been forewarned that it will jaundice me against any of the Astons, Ferraris and Lotus I've already sampled, for sheer insane fun.

Well, we'll see - but as the owner has also tried the best that Italy and the UK can offer, and elected to drive American, I'd say that the old adage "ask the man that owns one" at least has some weight.

Oh, and to be honest, I'd sooner drive a Mustang, a Viper, any Corvette, Charger or Challenger than I would a TVR or any BMW. But that's just me. I like the TVR, but I can't really engage with it somehow.
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Old 27 May 2003, 22:28 (Ref:611919)   #61
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I know I'm going to be in a minority with this, but I have to say I think that TVR looks ugly, like it was, well...er, built in a shed!
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Old 27 May 2003, 22:46 (Ref:611931)   #62
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Current American production sports cars?

Okay, there's the Shelby Series 1


The aforementioned Panoz Esperante


The Panoz Roadster


The Corvette



Those are all I can think of off the top of my head. Admittedly, the Corvette is a GT and not a sports car.

But what must also be kept in mind is how much harder it is to survive as a boutique manufacturer in the states, due to our ridiculous crash safety and emmissions regulations. You can't just take an engine that's already passed emmissions in another car, put it into a lightweight chassis, and slap some fiberglass over the top, and sell it. Registration and insurance are hell for cars like that. Prior to the 1970s, when these regs appeared, we had lots of small manufacturers running around.

One of my absolute favorites, the Devin SS... It uses a 283ci small-block Chevy back by a Borg-Warner T-10, same as in the then-current Corvette. It also predates the Cobra by several years:



And a really big, beautiful photo that actually does the car justice!
http://photo.popmonkey.com/9905winec...8_Devin_SS.jpg

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Old 28 May 2003, 18:11 (Ref:612724)   #63
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Lee, there's a red Devin SS that regularly races in British historic classes, and it's absolutely awesome.

I'd have one in an instant!
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Old 28 May 2003, 19:03 (Ref:612766)   #64
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PANOZ??!! A "DRIVER'S CAR"?? Pull the other one...

Although the Devin is lovely. But then again it isn't a "current" car either.
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Old 28 May 2003, 19:40 (Ref:612809)   #65
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Lotus? Caterham? TVR? Isn't british motor industry nowadays better like Nissan Primera or Toyota Avensis?
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Old 28 May 2003, 20:16 (Ref:612850)   #66
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PANOZ??!! A "DRIVER'S CAR"?? Pull the other one...
("attack the post ,not the poster...")
That post really is clueless!!

So what did you think of it when you took it for a test drive then as you obviosly have driven it (I haven't either, but then I said "How about this" not "This is a drivers car")

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Old 28 May 2003, 20:23 (Ref:612855)   #67
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OK, I KNOW I'm boring, but all the articles I've read on it say it ain't very good. Kinda a bit like a Marcos, but American. And Marcoses are, on the whole, rubbish. So there we go.
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Old 28 May 2003, 20:44 (Ref:612881)   #68
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Incidently, I believe the Panoz AVI was developed from an old kit-car from the UK (not sure what, possibly TMC Costain. Anyone know for sure?)

As for Marcos, since you like using jounalists in place of your own thoughts, here's a few comments about Marcosusises....

"An amazing device, ..."

"light and agile.."

"fine handling.."

"good value"

"quite luxurious.." (I don't believe that for one moment by the way )

"Amazing grunt and handling, butch character, easy to drive, well built, comfortable interior"

"it's quite cute in a way..." (That last one was about the Mini Marcos, )

So, now we know how you define 'rubbish'....

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Old 28 May 2003, 21:53 (Ref:612953)   #69
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I must confess that that MArcos comment was a purely personal thing. I appreciate what they do an' all, it's just... I dunno. Looks like a kit car in disguise (as does the Panoz), and whilst flyweight racing kit cars are all fine and dandy, big fat luxurious ones are... for men with beards.
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Old 28 May 2003, 22:11 (Ref:612967)   #70
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Looks like a kit car in disguise
It is a kit -car, at least it was untill a few years ago!
You can still get the Mini Marcos in kit form. Deep joy!

(Don't worry Triss, you'll be able to grow a beard one day!)
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Old 29 May 2003, 02:48 (Ref:613080)   #71
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*whines!*

You Brits and your kit cars... Lucky sods all of you!

Here, kit cars begin an end with rebodying a Volkswagen or a Fiero. Nearly impossible to get the damn things registered otherwise.
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Old 29 May 2003, 11:07 (Ref:613362)   #72
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Out of interest Tristan, would you say the one and only remotely sporty vehicle you have driven - the Audi TT - is a "driver's car" ?? Just wondering.

The "rubbish" Panoz has done ok for itself on the GT circuit over the past several years. But of course GT cars, by (your) definition, aren't real driver's cars are they? Maybe you'll appreciate these awesome monsters (and their planet-size appendaged drivers) when you can grow a beard...
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Old 29 May 2003, 19:49 (Ref:614042)   #73
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Out of interest Tristan, would you say the one and only remotely sporty vehicle you have driven - the Audi TT - is a "driver's car" ?? Just wondering.
Me too
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Old 29 May 2003, 23:07 (Ref:614195)   #74
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I can't help thinking we're clouding the question a bit with the 'It is/isn't a sportscar/drivers car' thing, that's just part of the story. How about things like appearance, build quality, comfort, level of 'gadgetry' etc and, just for a laugh, value for money!
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Old 29 May 2003, 23:14 (Ref:614200)   #75
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*whines!*

You Brits and your kit cars... Lucky sods all of you!

Here, kit cars begin an end with rebodying a Volkswagen or a Fiero. Nearly impossible to get the damn things registered otherwise.
It was the US that gave the world a Jeep copy built out of a Beetle- a rear engined jeep!!
Also, the same nation was responsable for a Cobra replica with a Beetle motor in the back
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