[NZST12R7] Ruapuna - 24th - 25th November

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by harcey

old tyres are free and old conveyer belt rubber is very cheap and sometimes free....and the three tracks down south are club/owned run so you would think they would be more likely to have access to club volunteers to help.

I couldn't agree more. But that is common sense, and common sense doesn't prevail like it used to!

[Biggy G]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

I started off watching the races....but found myself drifting back to watch the Aussie cricket.
Maybe they need some more cars,or a shorter sprint race?.

11 weeks and all your wishes are answered, more cars and back to sprint races. Looking forward to it.

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by harcey

because they are low category rated circuits they have minimal safety requirements thrust on the operators....
this is where common sense comes into play as far as extra work being carried out...
but i guess the dollars will always intervene.....
old tyres are free and old conveyer belt rubber is very cheap and sometimes free....and the three tracks down south are club/owned run so you would think they would be more likely to have access to club volunteers to help.

What Planet are you guys on?

All 3 South Island circuits are licenced to F.I.A. catogory 3 they are also inspected annually by MSNZ track inspectors and usually tri-annually by an International F.I.A. Track inspector.

If you want to know what the F.I.A. requirement is get a manual and read it.

[flyingduck]

Bill my answer is Earth I don't know if I think all the people on this site are but Bill the FIA say below

"The type of track protection recommended is dependent on
the available space and the likely impact angle. As a general
principle, where the probable impact angle is low, a continuous,
smooth, vertical barrier is preferable, and where the probable
impact angle is high a system of deceleration (e.g. gravel bed)
and stopping (e.g. tyre barrier) devices should be used, it being
indispensable to provide for sufficient space at such points in the
planning stage. The FIA can provide advice on the above, after
examination of the proposed layout in each case."

So with the Angle that J Mac was going off should there not be a Sand Trap that provides the slowing down, on to the Tyre wall quickly looking up the tyre walls I found below

2.1 Safety Barrier
A device designed to absorb the kinetic energy of
a racing car, during an impact, in a controlled
manner in order to reduce the potential for injury.

The barrier shall be positioned free standing*

This means not covered with dirt and unable to move unless the track has approval in the track Dossier which is not available to the general public. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong but some valid and cheap methods are being discussed here to correct a problem and I'm sure no-one likes seeing a driver injured but the injuries are what normally force rethinks and getting it better for future events.

[nistfan]

Not sure who Mark Van Gisbergen is, but lets hope hes just as quick as Shane.

Interesting story from Yesterdays papers

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news...ectid=10849816

[harcey]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

What Planet are you guys on?

All 3 South Island circuits are licenced to F.I.A. catogory 3 they are also inspected annually by MSNZ track inspectors and usually tri-annually by an International F.I.A. Track inspector.

If you want to know what the F.I.A. requirement is get a manual and read it.

Bill,i think the point we are trying to make is that just because the minimum track rules says that is all thats required do we do the minimum and then shut the blinkers......
i mean you dont have to wear knee and arm pads to skateboard but they do provide extra protection....
any skilled/knowledgeable driver could walk any track in NZ and identify areas of concern....
there is so much EXTRA protection that could be laid on at little or no cost..

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

Bill my answer is Earth I don't know if I think all the people on this site are but Bill the FIA say below...

I'm not sure what the first bit means, but I was just reading the same thing, and I agree with your take on this.

Bill, with respect I think you're being a little disingenuous. Hampton Downs is Grade 3 as well; where would you feel safer at 200kph plus, there or Timaru?

[Goat Boy]

It doesn't say much for the regulations if they can be interpreted that loosely. I am frankly amazed at the attitude that says, "Well, it complies with the minimum standard, so it's just hard luck if anyone gets hurt," which is the inference I get.

It's actually legal to wear shorts and jandals while riding a motorbike on the road, just as long as you wear a helmet. But it's also pretty bl**dy stupid.

The fact that a driver has been injured in an area of the track that those involved are saying is dangerous, then to turn around and accuse those people of dreaming if they think it's going to change harks back to the days when the only safety was a couple of haybales and drivers would lose their lives every year.

Safety standards have come a long, long way since the "good old days" and just because something used to be adequate then doesn't mean it is now, compliant or not.

I know that in general industry the message they are trying to get across is that safety comes first (eliminate, isolate, minimize) and that nobody should be put at risk. Whilst it is impossible to eliminate risk with racing, and difficult to isolate it, there is a whole lot that can be done to minimize it, and it doesn't even need to cost very much.

That is what the posters are saying, so climb off your high horse and take a look at the message from those that use the facility. I suspect you won't see ST's there again until it is addressed properly.

[Mr Revhead]

Why the picking on south island tracks? Puke... Manfeild...

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

Also can any one confirm the reason for points docking for the M3 team?

'Interpretation'

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Why the picking on south island tracks? Puke... Manfeild...

Because I don't think anyone would argue if someone pointed out one of the numerous issues with Puke...

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by harcey

Bill,i think the point we are trying to make is that just because the minimum track rules says that is all thats required do we do the minimum and then shut the blinkers......
i mean you dont have to wear knee and arm pads to skateboard but they do provide extra protection....
any skilled/knowledgeable driver could walk any track in NZ and identify areas of concern....
there is so much EXTRA protection that could be laid on at little or no cost..

Cotton Wool is good!

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

I'm not sure what the first bit means, but I was just reading the same thing, and I agree with your take on this.

Bill, with respect I think you're being a little disingenuous. Hampton Downs is Grade 3 as well; where would you feel safer at 200kph plus, there or Timaru?

Are you suggesting that MSNZ is using double standards for its inspections?

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Why the picking on south island tracks? Puke... Manfeild...

Puke is getting redone what's the issues at manfield?

[harcey]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

Cotton Wool is good!

seriously Bill.......thats the sort of comment you would expect from a "back in my day" circuit administrater and sort of says it all really...

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

'Interpretation'

Wasn't that Bill Clinton's defence?

[Mr Revhead]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

Puke is getting redone what's the issues at manfield?

It's no different from the tracks being called dangerous.

[nistfan]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

Cotton Wool is good!

Is that Standard Issue for a number of MSNZ issues over the past few years?

[Mr Revhead]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

Puke is getting redone what's the issues at manfield?

Why did my post disappear?

Manfeild has the same sort if barriers and traps as the others. Lots of placed you go off there and hit hard things

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

Wasn't that Bill Clinton's defence?

No, he actually said "Sack my cook and hold my calls"

Some people just don't listen!

[NZSTfan]

hahaha Mark van Gisbergen....typo- of the year!

And anyway, isn't SVG not allowed to race in anything remotely similar until 2014?

Dont get me wrong, i'd love to see him in a ST.

I think Rev has a point regarding the other tracks as well. I mean lets face it there are only two decent tracks in NZ, Taupo (underused) and Hammies. Puke will be much better one hopes with the $$ being pumped in. And for Manfield, that track is old but i still think its quite safe isn't it? Colin Corkery walked away from his 160kph crash coming onto the home straight.

But remember Manfield MUST be getting better otherwise they would not have changed the name of T7 from Dunlop to 'Pepsi Max'!!!!

Makes you think though, in a country the size of NZ we don't have it too bad when compared to some countries. That article in the herald stated that we had 8 and in Korea there will be only 3.

Add the that the Nelson and Cromwell tracks......makes the mind boggle.

But i guess this is the reason why, on a global scale, NZ does produce winners. Look at Mitch (x2), Hayden, Brendon, Dixon etc etc etc and thats not even the start.

[socram]

Considering many on here first spectated when it was considered OK for the crowd to be behind a rope and that a couple of hay bales shielding a lampost was acceptable, things have moved on! Equally, in car safety and speeds have also moved on.

A few years back, JM's accident could well have meant serious injury (or worse) and if track safety hadn't been improved, maybe spectator injuries too, though I missed whereabouts it was on a track I am unfamiliar with.

It appears there is a conflict now between absolute safety (impoossible) and spectator appeal. I would never bother going to some of the overseas tracks, as the spectator is so divorced from the racing, (read, miles away and/or stuck in a cage) that you may as well watch it on TV or read about it.

I believe the current thinking is that gravel traps don't really work anyway (Radisich at Bathhurst?) so quite why the original soft sand traps aren't used I am not too sure. (Increased roll overs?).

Building a large tarseal run off is the favoured method, (where there is space) but if the brakes fail at 250kph, then the end result isn't going to be pretty, regardless.

Maybe the question that needs to be asked is "Are modern racing cars now just too fast for the tracks?"

Incidentally, I thought Hampton Downs was built as a level 2 track? Even so, it hasn't stopped cars going over the barrier at turn 1 nor the current turn 4 (first hairpin).

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

Are you suggesting that MSNZ is using double standards for its inspections?

Goodness me, how did you come up with that?

My point is that if Timaru is FIA Grade 3 and considered safe, Grade 3 leaves a bit to be desired, don't you think? The real issue has been spelt out clearly by other posters so I don't think I need to go over it again.

[harcey]

Originally Posted by socram

Considering many on here first spectated when it was considered OK for the crowd to be behind a rope and that a couple of hay bales shielding a lampost was acceptable, things have moved on! Equally, in car safety and speeds have also moved on.

A few years back, JM's accident could well have meant serious injury (or worse) and if track safety hadn't been improved, maybe spectator injuries too, though I missed whereabouts it was on a track I am unfamiliar with.

It appears there is a conflict now between absolute safety (impoossible) and spectator appeal. I would never bother going to some of the overseas tracks, as the spectator is so divorced from the racing, (read, miles away and/or stuck in a cage) that you may as well watch it on TV or read about it.

I believe the current thinking is that gravel traps don't really work anyway (Radisich at Bathhurst?) so quite why the original soft sand traps aren't used I am not too sure. (Increased roll overs?).

Building a large tarseal run off is the favoured method, (where there is space) but if the brakes fail at 250kph, then the end result isn't going to be pretty, regardless.

Maybe the question that needs to be asked is "Are modern racing cars now just too fast for the tracks?"

Incidentally, I thought Hampton Downs was built as a level 2 track? Even so, it hasn't stopped cars going over the barrier at turn 1 nor the current turn 4 (first hairpin).

surely the thing here is..............'ok we have passed our license test/inspection'a bunch of mnz guys with clipboards(and i wont elaborate on that..............now what do "we" see and what can "we" do to extra improve our facility and how do "we" perceive some of the serious accidents "we" have had and what would "we" want improved if it was "us" that had the smouldering wreck in the trailer...
theres a lot of motorsport administrators out there with minimal race experience themselves but reasonable levels of "clerk' skill......

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Why the picking on south island tracks? Puke... Manfeild...

You are quite right - safety should be paramount at all and there are failings at many. It's great that NZ has so many tracks that people can race on, but it doesn't mean they are as good as they could be when it comes to certain corners that could have the safety factor increased dramatically for little or no money.

This is not directed at you Rev but as a driver I'm utterly dismayed at Bill's point. He's missing ours. His comment is utterly unreal and I believe totally, 100% unacceptable. Who cares WHAT the minimum requirement is. It takes big accidents or incidents to provide the momentum for change in motorsport. More often than not a death. That corner at Ruapuna could be made MUCH safer EASILY and very COST EFFECTIVELY. The evidence for that was clear and unequivocal in John's crash. It is a speciifc 50 metre stretch on that corner where to be honest, if you go off like John did, you're in the hands of the gods. There are other places at other tracks for sure that could be improved very easily.

Is Bill saying that New Zealand drivers are only entitled to the bare minimum of safety?

Complacency is a very dangerous thing.

Nobody on here has said spend a fortune and do the whole track - everyone knows how difficult this is, but if an obvious example occurs where simple changes would increase safety dramatically, then can someone please explain to me what is stopping that happening? Sure, taking your cue from an accident is not perfect, but it is better than not taking the cue at all.