Is this now a dying championship?

[BootsOntheSide]

Hemelgarn gone. Cheever gone, at least for now. Driver changing at D&R and Foyt. Drivers being linked with NASCAR. A few multi-car teams dominating. Can the championship really survive this run of problems? And how? What can Tony George and co do to turn things around for 2007.

[Mystery]

Sadly I don't believe the championship can survive in its current form. Seems that the teams are giving up the ghost so who's going to be there to take part next year. More likely they'll go and do ALMS at the moment I think, if not the obvious route of Champ Cars.

[mountainstar]

I hope it's almost the end.

It may have given some the opportunity to race and lined the pockets of some, but it never added value to the open wheel scene. You would figure with $200 million of honda, toyota and chevy money pumping through the championship for a few years it would have vaulted the irl to the top step, but even that or danica couldn't do it. Instead it has spiralled downward, with drivers scrambling for a lifeboat, an old creaky car, honda engine leases, poor events, etc.

It appears Honda has about given up, with robert clarke's comments again pointing to mr. george holding up a merger.

It might be an interesting next six months. Who will replace the $22 million Marlboro sponsorship for Penske? What will rahal do if danica leaves? panther, d&r and foyt are barely making it, will they survive? agr doesn't have the big honda bux they used to, can they field 4 cars on the sponsorship they have? etc.

[Jordi]

I think it only spells one thing. Despite the IRL seemingly on a slightly downward spiral, it's not like Champ Car is booming hugely either.

Reunite, gentlemen, and stop talented open-wheel drivers from going the NASCAR way.

[hotwheels]

champcar vs indycars ; pro series vs atlantic... too many series for USA...

[Michael Edick]

in my eyes, I've seen it as a problem created by TG, in that he wanted an American series, with American engines, in American cars, with American drivers, but NASCAR covered those bases along time ago (but now there's JPM...yeah!!!) but it does take two to tango.

regardless, TG needs to throw away his ego and his "vision" and sign up to re-unify the sport ASAP, else he'll go down in history as the one man who killed the Indy 500.

[rush1]

If the IRL is a dying championship that must imply that champ car championship is already dead.

Correct?

[Down F0rce]

I'm not even convinced a merger will save US open wheel anymore.

[Alwaysfirst]

Originally Posted by rush1

If the IRL is a dying championship that must imply that champ car championship is already dead.

Correct?

How did you come to that conclusion? CCWS has a definate new chassis coming next year, an expanding calendar, more & more teams looking interested in the series & non-F1/GP2 drivers looking at it once again as an alternative, nowhere near as much as they used to but more certainly that over the last 5 years. Contrast this with the IRL. No confirmed new chassis, teams dropping out, one of the biggest teams loosing a $22 million sponsorship deal, drivers wanting to race on ovals just planning on leaving for NASCAR, very little interest from the outside apart from the Indy 500 & a shrinking calendar. If one series survives it will be CCWS. If they need a merger then it needs to happen soon. 2 years time max. Then a combined series could look at trying to expand to what IT once was, rather than what THEY have now become.

[JohnSSC]

Neither series is doing well. Neither series as currently constitued can survive.

I am sure that I do not want to get into yet another "blame game" as there have been plenty of folks who have contributed to the demise of open wheel racing in North America. Greed, Hubris, Stupidity, Arrogance, Selfishness and Generalized Indifference to the real world have been displayed ad naseum by all creatures great and small. Naturally, no opportunity is wasted to point who may be holding the smoking gun. Such a discussion is a complete waste of time at this point - sort of like having a discussion over a dying lung cancer patient regarding the personal morals of the person who gave them their first cigarette. The ending of the life is far more important and the ending of this "life" of two racing series and what may or may not come next is the greater issue at this time.

Curious that things have gotten to the point where an alumnus chooses to return to the US racing scene from F1 via NASCAR and a current "hot commodity" generates ink not by the rumors linking her to another open-wheel team but rumors linking her to NASCAR. Perhaps she is just hedging her bets...my point is that the "ink" followed the NASCAR story - truly in the mind of the casual American race fan, NASCAR is the only series.

Anyway, looking at the diminishing car counts in both series' and the diminishing number of sponsors flashing $$, the handwriting on the wall that I see is not encouraging.

[JohnSSC]

Point on the "new" chassis for CCWS is that after what, six years of use some of these chassis can't go much longer - those Lolas need to be replaced and so this is not a sign of resurgence but a practical necessity.

As far as the "interest" from foreign shores it is still a "cash and carry" system. You can be as interested as you want, but no $$ = no ride.

[luke]

It looks that way. The IRL had its time at the top a few years back. But the way things have been done is the main reason. What's to say there won't be 17? There is no asurance. And to think the series had around 23 cars a few years back.
The way things are going, Tony's pocket and the money from Honda, and previously Toyota won't last forever. And you can see the affects now.
I think the main reason behind this is that the way the teams were brought in from CART. It's driven out all their teams that were part of the IRL, except one or two, ie Panther.

That's not to say Champ Car doesn't have it's problems, but Champ Car's new face since OWRS stepped was meant to be a long term thing and you start to see the bright future starting to unfold. Look at what the DP 01 will bring.

The open wheel scene in America is just a game of tennis with the momentum bouncing back and forth, but both ships starting to sink...

[drdisque]

If this is going to be a ***** & moan / IRL vs. OWRS / blame Tony session, then this thread should just be closed.

[rush1]

If you are a bigger fan of F1 than the IRL or CART you come from a distorted view. You might follow the series beacuse a driver from your native country is participating. Someday that Brit, Brazilian, Aussie or New Zealander could prove himself and than move up with the big boys in F1. And in order to make F1 they need not run the majority of their races on ovals.

You might even argue its good for the status of a league when a driver "moves on" to F1. Its always positive for a sporting league to confirm their secondary status by having their best drivers defect to another series.

NASCAR is a rival to the IRL and Champ Cars and so is F1. I say this as someone who enjoys both series over NASCAR and F1.

Thats why I want an end to the war between CART and the IRL. If you have either series best interests in mind there is no other way to look at it.

[JohnSSC]

Agree with you rush1.

Car counts are down in both series, except for the 500 there is no TV viewership to speak of. Still, there is plenty of common ground: most of the major players have been in both series as have a number of the "top" or "name" drivers, if you will and with all of the years of technical know-how available the whole chassis/engine issue should be resolvable without costing everyone an arm and a leg.

This battle, where there will be only losers, needs to end and end now.

[D.R.T.]

Totally concur.

[mountainstar]

Everyone wants change. I believe robert clarke(honda) was just quoted as saying every team owner in each series wants a merge, but after another endless, pointless meeting with tony george, mr. george continues to drag feet.

So it appears now it's mortal combat for the two, no merge now or ever. May the best series win.

We do compare champ/irl a lot, but just looking at the irl independently of what champcar does, there is no excitement there. No new venues, markets, drivers, etc. It just keeps condensing and sliding downwards with one team liquidation auction after another.

At the end of the day, I really don't care that much because we have been playing the same game with tony george back before I even started driving or graduated high school. It's been going on for so long, I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel for any reconciliation or merger for the good of everyone. It's sad for me to watch clips of old CART races and to remember what a great series that was and to think the FIA once though it was a threat to F1! I know that's all the past now, but why did this have to happen?

So, despite the bad times, I look to the future and watch Champcar rebuild. There are a lot of us that don't want to be dominated by ovals and nascar and champcar is for us. I'd like to see a time when we call it quits. mr. george can run silver crown cars at indy and we can have our races at Road America and Surfers Paradise.

[Hazza]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

There are a lot of us that don't want to be dominated by ovals and nascar and champcar is for us. I'd like to see a time when we call it quits. mr. george can run silver crown cars at indy and we can have our races at Road America and Surfers Paradise.

And there are alot of us who don't want to be dominated by street courses. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Either it will happen, or it won't and there isn't terribly much that we can do about it, 'cept sit back and let it take its course.

[luke]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Everyone wants change. I believe robert clarke(honda) was just quoted as saying every team owner in each series wants a merge, but after another endless, pointless meeting with tony george, mr. george continues to drag feet.

So it appears now it's mortal combat for the two, no merge now or ever. May the best series win.

We do compare champ/irl a lot, but just looking at the irl independently of what champcar does, there is no excitement there. No new venues, markets, drivers, etc. It just keeps condensing and sliding downwards with one team liquidation auction after another.

At the end of the day, I really don't care that much because we have been playing the same game with tony george back before I even started driving or graduated high school. It's been going on for so long, I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel for any reconciliation or merger for the good of everyone. It's sad for me to watch clips of old CART races and to remember what a great series that was and to think the FIA once though it was a threat to F1! I know that's all the past now, but why did this have to happen?

So, despite the bad times, I look to the future and watch Champcar rebuild. There are a lot of us that don't want to be dominated by ovals and nascar and champcar is for us. I'd like to see a time when we call it quits. mr. george can run silver crown cars at indy and we can have our races at Road America and Surfers Paradise.

Very good post moutainstar, couldn't agree more. You have summed it all up.

[Bluewolf]

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

I'm not even convinced a merger will save US open wheel anymore.

I disagree --- If you take the top drivers of each series and put them all in one -- you'll have a very formidable field that will attract many fans -- and remember, before the split, CART was a growing entity and gaining in TV ratings. The question is --Can CART and Tony George's both make whatever compromises it will take to merge the two series'.

[paul-collins]

I'd say the evidence on CC's revival is far from firm; in my opinion, both series are wasting away. Needlessly.

[BootsOntheSide]

If it continues as a war to the death, ChampCar will be the last left standing, although at a fraction of its late 90s level. This is the kind of war with no winner, only someone losing out less. Both sides need to sit down and accept that the combined series won't be everything they'd ideally want, but both are too small to survive alone.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

If it continues as a war to the death, ChampCar will be the last left standing...

Don't think I can agree that it's that clear cut. The IRL ultimately has the only race that matters to back it up.

Both series are on life support. Both are being funded out of pocket. It's a matter of who tires of spending first.

[Tim Northcutt]

Here is the link to a story in which Mr. Clarke is quoted extensively, and includes the quote that mountainstar referred to:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...607170349/1052

The most telling phrase in this -- "Time and Patience are Running Out"....

Sounds ominous...a real wake-up call for the involved parties to get it together.

[luke]

If only TG didn't form the IRL, the open wheel scene in America wouldn't be a mess.