[BTCC] BTCC 2021

[mark_l]

Do you have a list of penalties from 2020 season?

[Alfisti]

Maybe Uncle Alan is behind it.

He can exert influence, he can persuade people. Whether he has I do not know.

Andy Neate may of his own accord have stepped down as per the press release.

We may never know.

I do hope AN's head arrives in a happy place, whatever his future may bring.

[mark_l]

What I seem to have forgotten is the 2020 season didn't start till 2nd August. All points are valid on a 12 month rolling basis, so all the points accrued in 2020 are still valid till Knockhill on the 14/15 August 2021.

So going in to the second meeting of 2021, I make the penalty points totals for current drivers as:

Rory Butcher 2pts
Senna Proctor 2pts
Andy Neate 5pts (I know he won't be there)
Tom Ingram 2pts
Jack Butel 3pts

If anyone knows any different (and they probably do) then please let me know.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mark_l

So going in to the second meeting of 2021, I make the penalty points totals for current drivers as:

Rory Butcher 2pts
Senna Proctor 2pts
Andy Neate 5pts (I know he won't be there)
Tom Ingram 2pts
Jack Butel 3pts

If anyone knows any different (and they probably do) then please let me know.

I know he's not at Snetterton this time, but Cammish has two points from the last visit there.

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I know he's not at Snetterton this time, but Cammish has two points from the last visit there.

I said current drivers, Cammish has left the series after Thruxton.

[crmalcolm]

Turkington also has three points following Thruxton - so currently has the (joint) highest in-year endorsements.

For those who are interested, it's also worth noting that BTCC applies an in-year penalty points system and a 'Strike' system - alongside the MSA race licence 12-month rolling system.

The in-year points system means that any driver who has their licence endorsed with 8 points during a championship season will see them subject to a championship points deduction as well as possible further sanction. 12 points during a championship and you could lose up to 23 championship points (plus further sanction).

The strike system is rolling 12-month system. Any reprimand counts toward this - and I think a lot of the grid may already be on two 'strikes'.

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Turkington also has three points following Thruxton - so currently has the (joint) highest in-year endorsements.

Turkington is only listed in the end of meeting press release as being penalised 17 seconds in Round 1. No mention of any penalty points.

https://www.btcc.net/2021/05/09/cook...urtain-raiser/

[Robshillito1990]

One thing I'm surprised people haven't mentioned yet is the lack of updates and silence surrounding the rebuild of Glynn Geddies car. Hoping its not gone quiet for the wrong reasons.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by mark_l

Turkington is only listed in the end of meeting press release as being penalised 17 seconds in Round 1. No mention of any penalty points.

https://www.btcc.net/2021/05/09/cook...urtain-raiser/

https://www.touringcartimes.com/2021...ton-penalties/

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mark_l

Turkington is only listed in the end of meeting press release as being penalised 17 seconds in Round 1. No mention of any penalty points.

https://www.btcc.net/2021/05/09/cook...urtain-raiser/

https://www.barc.net/wp-content/uplo...-2-Round-1.pdf

'From: Ian Watson - Clerk of the Course
Venue: Thruxton – Race 1
To: Colin Turkington – Car No.: 2
Licence No.: 76865
Date: 9th May 2021
Championship: B.T.C.C.
[...]
3 Penalty points are awarded for this action, details of which will be recorded upon your licence records and you are advised of your right of appeal.'

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Robshillito1990

One thing I'm surprised people haven't mentioned yet is the lack of updates and silence surrounding the rebuild of Glynn Geddies car. Hoping its not gone quiet for the wrong reasons.

https://www.facebook.com/teamhardracing/posts

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by Robshillito1990

One thing I'm surprised people haven't mentioned yet is the lack of updates and silence surrounding the rebuild of Glynn Geddies car. Hoping its not gone quiet for the wrong reasons.

I don't think there's much to update at the moment, the car isn't back from Willie Poole yet.

[aland]

Originally Posted by Pickles

I don't think there's much to update at the moment, the car isn't back from Willie Poole yet.

going to be a few late nights bolting it back together, reckon willie poole need to recuit more engineers as they are building half the grid plus their other work

[S griffin]

Fingers crossed they manage to get the car out for Snett

[crmalcolm]

In an attempt to clear up the penalty points / endorsements tally, it actually seems more confusing.

I calculate it as follows:
Points in the last 12 months (MSA Licence)
Neate-5
Turkington-3
Butel-3
Gornall-3
Ingram-2
Butcher-2
Brown-2
Cammish-2
Proctor-2
Crees-2

Strikes in the last 12 months (3-strike sytem)
Neate-2 (3 if Thruxton 2020 incurred a second strike)
Turkington-1
Butle-1
Gornall-1
Ingram-1
Butcher-1
Brown-1
Cammish-1
Proctor-1
Crees-1

Reprimands in the last 12 months (3 reprimands = 1 strike)
Ingram-1
Morgan-1
Sutton-1
Thompson-1

Penalty points in-season (8 pts = further sanction)
Neate-3
Turkington-3
Ingram-2


Where it gets confusing is the definition of a 'Reprimand'. A lot of reports refer to drivers picking up a reprimand, along with penalty points.

The regulations say that 'Any driver who has received a penalty of any kind [...] will [...] be given a ‘Strike’.'
The BTCC website says that 'some on-track driving offences will continue to receive ‘reprimands’. From 2019, three reprimands will now constitute a ‘Strike’. A Strike will also be automatically applied for a more serious offence; as an example, when a driver is found to be wholly to blame in an incident that causes another driver to be unable to finish the race.'

If I take this and look at reports - taking Snetterton 2020 as an example. Autosport reported as 'Rory Butcher has received a verbal reprimand and a 'strike' following his last-corner clash with fellow title contender Tom Ingram'. The BTCC website reported this as 'Rory Butcher received an official reprimand and had his licence endorsed by the addition of two penalty points for an incident involving Tom Ingram'.

In compiling the figures above, I have made the assumption that where penalty points were issued as a result of driving standards, that would amount to a 'Strike', and where the report only mentions a formal reprimand, this would amount to a 'Reprimand'. If this is an incorrect assumption, happy to amend.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

In an attempt to clear up the penalty points / endorsements tally, it actually seems more confusing.

I calculate it as follows:
Points in the last 12 months (MSA Licence)
Neate-5
Turkington-3
Butel-3
Gornall-3
Ingram-2
Butcher-2
Brown-2
Cammish-2
Proctor-2
Crees-2

Strikes in the last 12 months (3-strike sytem)
Neate-2 (3 if Thruxton 2020 incurred a second strike)
Turkington-1
Butle-1
Gornall-1
Ingram-1
Butcher-1
Brown-1
Cammish-1
Proctor-1
Crees-1

Reprimands in the last 12 months (3 reprimands = 1 strike)
Ingram-1
Morgan-1
Sutton-1
Thompson-1

Penalty points in-season (8 pts = further sanction)
Neate-3
Turkington-3
Ingram-2


Where it gets confusing is the definition of a 'Reprimand'. A lot of reports refer to drivers picking up a reprimand, along with penalty points.

The regulations say that 'Any driver who has received a penalty of any kind [...] will [...] be given a ‘Strike’.'
The BTCC website says that 'some on-track driving offences will continue to receive ‘reprimands’. From 2019, three reprimands will now constitute a ‘Strike’. A Strike will also be automatically applied for a more serious offence; as an example, when a driver is found to be wholly to blame in an incident that causes another driver to be unable to finish the race.'

If I take this and look at reports - taking Snetterton 2020 as an example. Autosport reported as 'Rory Butcher has received a verbal reprimand and a 'strike' following his last-corner clash with fellow title contender Tom Ingram'. The BTCC website reported this as 'Rory Butcher received an official reprimand and had his licence endorsed by the addition of two penalty points for an incident involving Tom Ingram'.

In compiling the figures above, I have made the assumption that where penalty points were issued as a result of driving standards, that would amount to a 'Strike', and where the report only mentions a formal reprimand, this would amount to a 'Reprimand'. If this is an incorrect assumption, happy to amend.

thats not the formula for the 2021 strike system according to the regulations.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

thats not the formula for the 2021 strike system according to the regulations.

So has the 'Strike' system changed since 2019? And could you kindly explain the difference between a 'Reprimand' and a 'Strike' as per 2021 regulations? Is a formal reprimand considered to be a 'Strike'.

I'm trying to get an understanding of how things have been changed.
The clarification posted by the organisers was made ahead of the 2019 season - the subsequent regulations were worded to indicate that an offence under C.2.3 would result in a penalty, and three of these meant a Strike. An offence under C.1.1.5 was an immediate Strike.

For 2020 onward, I can't find a reference to offences under C.2.3 counting towards a 'Strike', and there appears to be no link between reprimands and strikes?

[crmalcolm]

If penalties under C.2.3 are no longer counted towards the strike system, then I calculate it as follows:

Points in the last 12 months (MSA Licence)
Neate-5
Turkington-3
Butel-3
Gornall-3
Ingram-2
Butcher-2
Brown-2
Cammish-2
Proctor-2
Crees-2

Strikes in the last 12 months (3-strike sytem)
Neate-2 (3 if Thruxton 2020 incurred a second strike)
Turkington-1
Butle-1
Gornall-1
Ingram-1
Butcher-1
Brown-1
Cammish-1
Proctor-1
Crees-1

Penalty points in-season (8 pts = further sanction)
Neate-3
Turkington-3
Ingram-2

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So has the 'Strike' system changed since 2019? And could you kindly explain the difference between a 'Reprimand' and a 'Strike' as per 2021 regulations? Is a formal reprimand considered to be a 'Strike'.

I'm trying to get an understanding of how things have been changed.
The clarification posted by the organisers was made ahead of the 2019 season - the subsequent regulations were worded to indicate that an offence under C.2.3 would result in a penalty, and three of these meant a Strike. An offence under C.1.1.5 was an immediate Strike.

For 2020 onward, I can't find a reference to offences under C.2.3 counting towards a 'Strike', and there appears to be no link between reprimands and strikes?

just read up the 2021 regulations. section 4.4.5

https://www.btcc.net/wp-content/uplo...V2_Website.pdf

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

just read up the 2021 regulations. section 4.4.5

https://www.btcc.net/wp-content/uplo...V2_Website.pdf

Yes - I've read that, and it's still not clear to me.

The BTCC roundup on the website says:
'Race 1:
Colin Turkington was penalised by the addition of 17 seconds to his race time for an incident involving Ash Sutton.
Race 2:
Tom Ingram received a formal written reprimand and had his licence endorsed by the addition of two penalty points for an incident involving Adam Morgan.
Andy Neate received a fine of £2,000 and had his licence endorsed by the addition of three penalty points for an incident involving Glynn Geddie and Jade Edwards.'

From the official noticeboard:
Ingram contravened MSUK Regulation Q12.21.1, was given a formal reprimand and awarded 2 penalty points.
Turkington contravened MSUK Regulation Q12.21.4, was given a time penalty and awarded 3 penalty points.
Neate contravened MSUK Regulation C1.1.5, was given a fine and awarded 3 penalty points.

Does that mean that Neate is the only one to have received a Strike?

[mark_l]

Maybe it is deliberately vague so they can choose who to penalise further and who gets away.

For example if Turkington and Sutton are both close to 3 strikes going in to the final meeting while in a battle for the title, will penalties be allowed to decide the title?

If Andy Neate gets 3 strikes you can be sure he will be warming the naughty step on the TOCA bus.

Is a verbal warning classed as a strike?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mark_l

Maybe it is deliberately vague so they can choose who to penalise further and who gets away.

I tend to think you are right on this point.

The regulations are clear when it comes to a C1.1.5 penalty - and how points and strikes are managed, both in-season and 12-month rolling. But they also seem deliberately vague on when a reprimand becomes a strike, what other offences may lead to a strike (if any) etc.

The regulations include the wording 'Issue a reprimand, which may include...' - but the published reports never indicate what strikes have been issued, or the details of the reprimand.
The consequences of a reprimand are not obviously defined - and I suspect deliberately so.

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Fingers crossed they manage to get the car out for Snett

Talking to the No. 1 mechanic on that car it will be out at Snetterton but there's going to be a lot of late nights

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I tend to think you are right on this point.

The regulations are clear when it comes to a C1.1.5 penalty - and how points and strikes are managed, both in-season and 12-month rolling. But they also seem deliberately vague on when a reprimand becomes a strike, what other offences may lead to a strike (if any) etc.

The regulations include the wording 'Issue a reprimand, which may include...' - but the published reports never indicate what strikes have been issued, or the details of the reprimand.
The consequences of a reprimand are not obviously defined - and I suspect deliberately so.

In the judicial reports you often see the phrase "This penalty was classed by the BTCC Clerk to be a Strike under CR 4.4.5.", which leads me to believe that any penalty not including this phrase is not a Strike.

So at Thruxton Turkington got a Strike in race 1, and Neate and Ingram in race 2. But no other incidents resulted in a Strike.

So the aggregate Strikes over the last 12 months are:

Neate - 2
Butcher - 2
Turkington - 1
Ingram - 1
Proctor - 1
Crees - 1
Cammish - 1
Neal - 1
Morgan - 1
Thompson - 1
Sutton - 1
Gornall - 1
Brown - 1

[S griffin]

I think the strikes are only used in the calendar year, unlike points on the licence, which are kept on for 12 months