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19 Jun 2019, 20:43 (Ref:3912971) | #26 | |
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I guess the reason the "safety car line" rule has come to dominate the "anywhere you like" rule is that it's easier to monitor and enforce. As Rudolf says, if you don't enforce the rules it doesn't really matter what they are. But many of us have seen rules being enforced more rigorously in recent years. Rather than going through a simultaneous bunch of reports from posts all round the circuit, it must be easier to monitor compliance at one or two specific points?
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20 Jun 2019, 02:47 (Ref:3913002) | #27 | |||
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In effect as soon as the safety car is in the pitlane, the race restarts after the start finish line. That I think, is the general rule, hence the reason for getting(trying) to get everyone into the pre SC intervention. I think this is where the confusion comes in. Back markers are often the cause. |
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
20 Jun 2019, 05:39 (Ref:3913020) | #28 | ||
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I don’t think anyone would disagree that getting all competitors in a neat line behind the SC within a reasonable period of time is almost impossible in many cases. As said before, no one wants to be circulating behind the SC for several minutes after the track has been cleared, because A.N.Other is still half a lap away.....
With info being recorded from the transponders we all have, including sector times as well as complete laps, all the necessary info is in race control without having to rely on Marshals reports. However, the latter is good, as it then requires RC to check the data. Maybe what is lacking sometimes, is the manpower in RC to actually check through the info available? But if drivers were allowed to overtake as soon as green flags replaced yellows and SC boards around the circuit, then the work load upstairs would be reduced, and the scenario that started the whole thread would be eliminated...... Going back to FCY procedure, can anyone confirm that cars are racing again, wherever they are on the circuit, as soon as green flags are shown? I can’t find any clarification on line! |
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20 Jun 2019, 06:04 (Ref:3913022) | #29 | ||
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Back to previous comments my feeling is that a SC procedure is better than nothing but not the best from a competitor's point of view. FCY or Code 60 are better and not supposed to change the gap between two cars.
Another question: do you have the same grid depending on if the start is a rolling one or not? As an example if the pole position is on the right for a standing start its moved to the left in case of rolling start. Is it the same in GB? I won't ask who settled this rule at least in France… |
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20 Jun 2019, 09:19 (Ref:3913041) | #30 | ||
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Yes, because it's covered by the existing yellow flag rules: racing resumes at the next marshal's post showing a green flag (it's just a very long yellow flag zone).
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20 Jun 2019, 11:30 (Ref:3913067) | #31 | ||
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20 Jun 2019, 11:31 (Ref:3913068) | #32 | |
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Safety Car Regulations:
Event run under ISC - Refer to Appendix H Article 2.10 Event run under MSUK - Refer to Section Q Appendix 2 Full Course Yellow / Code 60 Regulations Event run under ISC - Refer to Appendix H Article 2.5.5b Event run under MSUK - Refer to Section Q Appendix 3 for Code 60 as FCY is not in the regs Safety car lines 1 and 2 are there in International events to indicate where a competitor entering or leaving the pits under a safety car situation can overtake the safety car and other competitors when entering the pits or leaving the pits and rejoining the track. They do not allow any competitors still on the track to overtake another competitor. All of the above should be highlighted in any driver briefing |
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20 Jun 2019, 12:09 (Ref:3913076) | #33 | ||
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Ah, so the SC regs are in the blue book! In an appendix.... Thanks.
The MSUK is very clear in para 1.12 that overtaking is strictly forbidden until the start signal at the start/finish line is passed. I’m assuming that’s why UK organisers stopped allowing it. But FIA ISC App H 2.9.15 doesn't state whether cars can or cannot overtake when green flags are shown, so must be at the discretion of organisers? I’ll have to dig up briefing notes from the last race...... At least we’re getting somewhere. Thanks SWC for pointing me in the right direction! |
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20 Jun 2019, 13:30 (Ref:3913088) | #34 | |
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Safety Car - ISC App H Article 2.10.10 states:
All the competing cars must then form up in line behind the safety car no more than five car lengths apart, and overtaking, – if any car slows with an obvious problem.with the following exceptions, is forbidden until the cars reach the Line (or the next race neutralisation end point) after the safety car has returned to the pit lane. Overtaking will be permitted under the following circumstances: – if a car is signalled to do so from the safety car; – under Article 2.10.18; – any car entering the pits may pass another car or the safety car after it has crossed the first safety car line, as defined under Article 2.10.2; – any car leaving the pits may be overtaken by another car on the track before it crosses the second safety car line, as defined under Article 2.10.2; – when the safety car is returning to the pit lane or its intermediate position, it may be overtaken by cars on the track once it has crossed the safety car line; – any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the safety car is using the pit lane (see Article 2.10.14) may be overtaken; I have made the word "Line" bold above. This is the Control Line, otherwise known as the finish line |
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20 Jun 2019, 16:32 (Ref:3913142) | #35 | ||
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When I search for Appendix H it brings up 2012 or 2016 documents, neither of which have the wording you’ve copied!
I’ll have to try harder to find a current version...... Found it! Thanks again for your help. Last edited by Mike Bell; 20 Jun 2019 at 17:14. |
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20 Jun 2019, 17:57 (Ref:3913151) | #36 | ||
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Only this part "if any car slows with an obvious problem" can be discussed. Depending on the CoC interpretation a slowing car must leave the track limits before you're allowed to overtake it. In principle you're not allowed to "help" it doing so …
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20 Jun 2019, 19:26 (Ref:3913164) | #37 | ||
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If you’ve got a problem and make it known to following cars so that they can overtake, that should be enough.
But I would like to see the next paragraph being used more.... |
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21 Jun 2019, 08:15 (Ref:3913250) | #38 | ||
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Of course, wouldn't it be a lot easier to navigate/find the appropriate regulation(s) if we had a printed copy to consult?
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21 Jun 2019, 08:28 (Ref:3913255) | #39 | |
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The current ISC and its relevant appendices are available on the FiA website under Sport, Regulations, International Sporting Code and Appendices
https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123 The MSUK Blue Book is available online here https://www.motorsportuk.org/News-Pu...tions/Yearbook and if you want a hardcopy you need to email MUK and request one As they are both PDFs, they are easily searchable for key words |
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21 Jun 2019, 09:58 (Ref:3913274) | #40 | ||
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Thank you again. I found ISC App H yesterday via FIA and it’s now bookmarked!
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21 Jun 2019, 12:25 (Ref:3913293) | #41 | |||
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And since their whole approach to the Safety Car is to make it not the same as in America because they can't be seen to be adopting their idea, they've pretty much got it wrong from the start and continued getting it wrong with every amendment since. National bodies have then pretty much adopted the same, generally in the hope of avoiding confusion. I've never understood the start line reasoning, if it's safe to race, it's safe everywhere, so get on and do it. The only issue is if flaggies aren't all on comms, and we're often not, then you can't put the greens out at the same time everywhere. But that's still less of a disadvantage than having to follow someone for half a lap. |
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21 Jun 2019, 15:18 (Ref:3913338) | #42 | |||
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22 Jun 2019, 06:48 (Ref:3913427) | #43 | ||
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In karting we use the Battenburg flag (yellow/black squares) so the field closes up behind the leader. I saw it used on a car race track just the once, and it was a total disaster with random groups of cars driving at random speeds. Totally defeated the point.
As you say, if only there were a central point of reference with it all written down so we could refer to it online. You could print it in a book if you wanted, too. I'm not sure some clerks are totally au fait with the rule book either and apply their own "understanding". Here's a thought. Motorsport UK are very active on social media these days, why couldn't they take one rule or procedure each week and highlight what to do and why you do it? Start with the safety car, of course! I always find the act of explaining something makes you ask questions of yourself. Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk |
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22 Jun 2019, 10:01 (Ref:3913441) | #44 | ||
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I was gonna go into a long speal with this.... but...
Mike, has your question been answered? |
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Martin Smith Clerk of the Course, 3 times Race of Remembrance class Winner Organising Committee and regs writer of ROR, Chair and owner of 360 Motor Racing Club |
22 Jun 2019, 10:14 (Ref:3913443) | #45 | |||
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As far as racing under MSUK regs are concerned, it seem black and white- No overtaking until passing the start line. The FIA ISC regulation also suggests the same, but is not worded quite so exactly. Interestingly, the Race Director at the meeting referred to at the beginning reckoned it’s down to him whether to allow or not. Therefore the organiser is now getting a petition signed by many regular competitors to have the rule changed and allow overtaking as soon as green flags are waved. We’ll see what happens...... |
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22 Jun 2019, 10:24 (Ref:3913446) | #46 | |||
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The deployment of a safety car is explained several times 1 its explained in the blue book (page 290/291) 2 Its online (go to MotorsportUk and do a search) ... the Blue book is ONLINE peeps 3 For the event in question, it will be in the supplementary regs which as a competitor you should read 4 it will be explained at the drivers briefing which is mandatory to attend and thats when you think (as a competitor) "I've heard it all before" ... but you see, for that particular event you haven't, there maybe changes to the track/event/regs that have happened since you were last there or since you last raced with the organiser ..... THATS why we like you to attend and its there that the magic really happens... for there you can INTERACT with the "powers that be" by putting your hand up when a clerk like me is standing there not for their own benefit and say "Claire, what you have just described regarding the safety car is different slightly to the general regulations in the blue book, can you tell me why" and I will then list things like 1 The track License here requires that we do Blah Blah 2 The Series/Championship rules require this because blah blah 3 Past experience has found that.... blah blah 4 Given the technology here we will be using smoke signals! and, if you have an issue with that still, you could 1 take it up with the stewards of the event including the MotorsportUk steward 2 lodge a complaint to MotorsportUK 3 Not attend As for clerks not knowing, they should do, we do actually have a form of CPD which requires attendance, but also, just like you can, we are informed of rule changes AS THEY HAPPEN by the Motorsport UK (register for updates and you will be amazed!!!) Now, one more spoon for the king!!! Last edited by MartinSmith; 22 Jun 2019 at 10:32. |
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Martin Smith Clerk of the Course, 3 times Race of Remembrance class Winner Organising Committee and regs writer of ROR, Chair and owner of 360 Motor Racing Club |
22 Jun 2019, 10:26 (Ref:3913448) | #47 | |||
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Also, the circuit licence can effect the way deployment is carried out |
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Martin Smith Clerk of the Course, 3 times Race of Remembrance class Winner Organising Committee and regs writer of ROR, Chair and owner of 360 Motor Racing Club |
22 Jun 2019, 10:42 (Ref:3913451) | #48 | ||
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Thanks Claire. The Series Regs do indeed include the rule. The comprehensive briefing notes always given out (and read by me, at least ) also repeat the ISC App H wording.
As I said couple of posts ago, it will be interesting to see if the competitors are listened to.... |
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22 Jun 2019, 10:55 (Ref:3913454) | #49 | |||
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Reminds me of a certain female Clerk before my time who was told by a marshal that she should get down from the pit wall... "You cant go there" said the marshall, to which she replied " My love I'm the Clerk of the Course... I can go where i f***king like"... That was not me.... people on here will know who it was though |
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Martin Smith Clerk of the Course, 3 times Race of Remembrance class Winner Organising Committee and regs writer of ROR, Chair and owner of 360 Motor Racing Club |
22 Jun 2019, 11:34 (Ref:3913466) | #50 | ||
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Love it!
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