[VASC19R28PECRD3] Penrite Oil Sandown 500, Sandown International Raceway, 8-10 Nov

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Lol@#97.......there is a God !!!

Stay classy.

[GTRMagic]

’Penalties Won’t Tarnish Title’ - McLaughlin

I didn’t know the Holden teams put an illegal engine in #17 for all running til Saturday night, nor that they instructed and drove #12 to be a minute off the car in front of them to allow #17 to get a gap...

If you read the article, everything seems to be a conspiracy theory... for actions the team has been convicted of taking..

Weird

[Phillip Ireland]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Stay classy.

Good point. Whether you love or loathe Van Gis, he has proven by running to McLaughlin's inverted car at the GC600, and putting his hand up for this driving error yesterday, he is a fair dinkum competitor. To then drive from the back of the grid to the front of the race today and have the win snatched from his grasp by a mechanical failure, that's rough. Give the guy a break, or maybe operate on a more sensationalist site.

[banksie]

Tander's drive was excellent and deserved to be rewarded.

Hardly the first car to suffer heartbreak. Just a reminder that you don't have to be dead to be stiff.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by banksie

Tander's drive was excellent and deserved to be rewarded.

Hardly the first car to suffer heartbreak. Just a reminder that you don't have to be dead to be stiff.

As Mr. Crompton likes to say and said in today's broadcast; Motorsport can be a cruel game at times.

[JAFA851]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

’Penalties Won’t Tarnish Title’ - McLaughlin

I didn’t know the Holden teams put an illegal engine in #17 for all running til Saturday night, nor that they instructed and drove #12 to be a minute off the car in front of them to allow #17 to get a gap...

If you read the article, everything seems to be a conspiracy theory... for actions the team has been convicted of taking..

Weird

I don't think he's the sharpest tool in the box, far from it in fact. Coming out with stuff like this, just makes you think the whole team, drivers and all, are in on all the cheating, and now they're sooking because they got caught. He's in dreamland if he doesn't think the Championship and Bathurst titles are tarnished.

[bluesport]

I'd like to be watching Roland sitting around stewing in his own juices atm........lol

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

’Penalties Won’t Tarnish Title’ - McLaughlin

I didn’t know the Holden teams put an illegal engine in #17 for all running til Saturday night, nor that they instructed and drove #12 to be a minute off the car in front of them to allow #17 to get a gap...

If you read the article, everything seems to be a conspiracy theory... for actions the team has been convicted of taking..

Weird

Look at the raft of rules introduced the year after Murphy's "Lap of the Gods" on engines?? Those Walkinshaw engines were on the limit back then, so hence why they introduced the rules. We can thank Holden for all that.

The issue I have with this is that obviously something happened during the course of the weekend that caused the valve lift to change. The fact that it happened on a couple of cyclinders, why aren't they appealing?? If you have a engine build sheet that states the engine came out clean, then why not fight it. Why even fine them and strip them if no advantage was found??

What else are they going to find in 2 weeks time?? They've got 2 many LED's in the rear tail-light assembly?

I support drivers more so than teams and manufacturer in this catergory, and when a team does the wrong thing, they should pay for it. But the fact this year alone so many changes have been made to all the cars and that DJRTP seems to copping the brunt of it, I'm near done with it.

[Forda]

Originally Posted by Denosaur

Look at the raft of rules introduced the year after Murphy's "Lap of the Gods" on engines?? Those Walkinshaw engines were on the limit back then, so hence why they introduced the rules. We can thank Holden for all that.

The issue I have with this is that obviously something happened during the course of the weekend that caused the valve lift to change. The fact that it happened on a couple of cyclinders, why aren't they appealing?? If you have a engine build sheet that states the engine came out clean, then why not fight it. Why even fine them and strip them if no advantage was found??

What else are they going to find in 2 weeks time?? They've got 2 many LED's in the rear tail-light assembly?

I support drivers more so than teams and manufacturer in this catergory, and when a team does the wrong thing, they should pay for it. But the fact this year alone so many changes have been made to all the cars and that DJRTP seems to copping the brunt of it, I'm near done with it.

You've raised many good points here.

Roger must have the patience of a saint, to endure the relentless and never-ending "parity" hacks, attacks, and expensive fines.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Forda

You've raised many good points here.

Roger must have the patience of a saint, to endure the relentless and never-ending "parity" hacks, attacks, and expensive fines.

It makes me suspicious that the holden lobby are trying to frustrate Roger so that he leaves the category.

[Umai Naa]

If you're not across the rule book, you shouldn't be competing in the sport. Simple as that.

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by Denosaur

But the fact this year alone so many changes have been made to all the cars and that DJRTP seems to copping the brunt of it, I'm near done with it.

Perhaps they should stop breaking the rules? for the most cashed up team in the series and having wielded the chequebook to secure the cream of staff, wow, they sure seem to make some errors....

oh, and i think you will find that any change effects everyone....

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by Forda

Roger must have the patience of a saint, to endure the relentless and never-ending "parity" hacks, attacks, and expensive fines.

Im pretty sure is just the thick skin that comes from decades of proven cheating in every series his teams have operated in.

[Umai Naa]

They still got their Bathurst win, and two championships.

How they got them, presumably isn't that important.

[Forda]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

If you're not across the rule book, you shouldn't be competing in the sport. Simple as that.

You might recall the Mustang was originally designed to be 100% compliant with the then-current rule book, but has been continually singled-out and chipped away at since.

And after having one month to strip down and comb through the qualifying engine, which was reported with known problems at the time; the best they could come up with was something like 20% of the width of a sheet of paper difference in the lift of not 8, but 5 of the valves, which resulted in a 0% performance gain.

Shifting goal posts, selective discrimination, and extreme nit-picking show the real issue is with the sport's rule-making (changing) and adjudication processes.

[Umai Naa]

The rules are the rules.

The new technical department are ensuring they're enforced.

I'd to think what kinds of stunts were being pulled in years past...

[djr81]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

The rules are the rules.

The new technical department are ensuring they're enforced.

I'd to think what kinds of stunts were being pulled in years past...

Probably worth reading. Sounds the "the new technical department" are finding new ways to do things. Measure a damaged engine a different way and get a different result to the last time it was done...

In summary, DJRTP’s contentions were that:
– The inlet and exhaust valve lift is regularly checked by Supercars Technical personnel. Indeed, the valve lift on the DJRTP’s engines had been checked approximately 10 times this season, including on the Q Engine, with no issue observed. Because the checking of the valve lift was an expected process, it can be inferred that DJRTP would not have deliberately used an engine with that lift exceeded;
– An in-engine check of valve lift is commonly performed at Events and is a straightforward process, particularly on cylinders 1 and 5 which are at the front of the engine and easily accessible. Of the inlet valve lift exceedances, two of the cylinders were 1 and 5. Again, because it could be anticipated that the valve lift in cylinders 1 and 5 would be checked, it can be inferred that it is unlikely that DJRTP would have knowingly allowed the valve lift in those cylinders to be exceeded;
– The build sheet for the Q Engine demonstrates that the valve lift had been measured as within spec before the Bathurst Event;
– Because the ESD prescribes a procedure for measuring valve lift, the issue is not a simple question of the valve lift measurement but rather it is the measurement using that specific procedure;
– There are shortcomings in the specified procedure because a ‘foot’ or plate on the indicator shaft will mean that the indicator shaft will not be on the same axis as the valve stem;
– Before this issue was discovered, DJRTP measured its own valve lift using an analogue instrument which did not have the “foot” at the bottom of the indicator shaft. Nor did Supercars Technical personnel regularly use the Mitutoyo 432-492B digital indicator. Therefore, what has been discovered is the result of a change in circumstances;
– The degree of exceedance of the Maximum Valve Lift was nominal;
– The Q Engine had been run on the Supercars Technical dyno after Race 25 and after two power runs was not exceeding the mandated maximum Accumulated Power Number nor the EPWA number. Further power runs were not possible because Supercars Technical personnel observed water vapour being emitted from the oil tank which was consistent with the issues observed at the Bathurst Event and which had led to that engine being replaced prior to Race 25. Thus, it was submitted, there was an issue with the Q Engine and the possibility that the issue had some bearing on the valve lift couldn’t be dismissed and, further, there was no demonstrated performance advantage from the Maximum Valve Lift exceedance.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Forda

You might recall the Mustang was originally designed to be 100% compliant with the then-current rule book, but has been continually singled-out and chipped away at since.

And after having one month to strip down and comb through the qualifying engine, which was reported with known problems at the time; the best they could come up with was something like 20% of the width of a sheet of paper difference in the lift of not 8, but 5 of the valves, which resulted in a 0% performance gain.

Shifting goal posts, selective discrimination, and extreme nit-picking show the real issue is with the sport's rule-making (changing) and adjudication processes.

The people within supercars would have allegiance to one brand or another and probably as much 80% of them at least are closet holden supporters that only want other makes in the category so that holden will have someone to compete with, not win on a regular basis.........enter Mr Roger Penske a few years back to upset the status quo, now we're witnessing parity by lobbying.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Perhaps they should stop breaking the rules? for the most cashed up team in the series and having wielded the chequebook to secure the cream of staff, wow, they sure seem to make some errors....



oh, and i think you will find that any change effects everyone....

Their problem is exactly like wealthy AFL or NRL teams. Once you cap certain items, if you want to gain advantage by out spending your competitors, the things you can do wirh the money get greyer and greyer.

[Forda]

Originally Posted by djr81

Probably worth reading. Sounds the "the new technical department" are finding new ways to do things. Measure a damaged engine a different way and get a different result to the last time it was done...

In summary, DJRTP’s contentions were that:
– The inlet and exhaust valve lift is regularly checked by Supercars Technical personnel. Indeed, the valve lift on the DJRTP’s engines had been checked approximately 10 times this season, including on the Q Engine, with no issue observed. Because the checking of the valve lift was an expected process, it can be inferred that DJRTP would not have deliberately used an engine with that lift exceeded;
– An in-engine check of valve lift is commonly performed at Events and is a straightforward process, particularly on cylinders 1 and 5 which are at the front of the engine and easily accessible. Of the inlet valve lift exceedances, two of the cylinders were 1 and 5. Again, because it could be anticipated that the valve lift in cylinders 1 and 5 would be checked, it can be inferred that it is unlikely that DJRTP would have knowingly allowed the valve lift in those cylinders to be exceeded;
– The build sheet for the Q Engine demonstrates that the valve lift had been measured as within spec before the Bathurst Event;
– Because the ESD prescribes a procedure for measuring valve lift, the issue is not a simple question of the valve lift measurement but rather it is the measurement using that specific procedure;
– There are shortcomings in the specified procedure because a ‘foot’ or plate on the indicator shaft will mean that the indicator shaft will not be on the same axis as the valve stem;
– Before this issue was discovered, DJRTP measured its own valve lift using an analogue instrument which did not have the “foot” at the bottom of the indicator shaft. Nor did Supercars Technical personnel regularly use the Mitutoyo 432-492B digital indicator. Therefore, what has been discovered is the result of a change in circumstances;
– The degree of exceedance of the Maximum Valve Lift was nominal;
– The Q Engine had been run on the Supercars Technical dyno after Race 25 and after two power runs was not exceeding the mandated maximum Accumulated Power Number nor the EPWA number. Further power runs were not possible because Supercars Technical personnel observed water vapour being emitted from the oil tank which was consistent with the issues observed at the Bathurst Event and which had led to that engine being replaced prior to Race 25. Thus, it was submitted, there was an issue with the Q Engine and the possibility that the issue had some bearing on the valve lift couldn’t be dismissed and, further, there was no demonstrated performance advantage from the Maximum Valve Lift exceedance.

Can't think of a situation which better sums up the phrase "making a mountain out of a molehill".

[Umai Naa]

If it's non-compliant, it's non-compliant.

All teams and engine builders dealing with the pushrod V8s have to abide by the same technical specs.

[Forda]

Originally Posted by bluesport

The people within supercars would have allegiance to one brand or another and probably as much 80% of them at least are closet holden supporters that only want other makes in the category so that holden will have someone to compete with, not win on a regular basis.........enter Mr Roger Penske a few years back to upset the status quo, now we're witnessing parity by lobbying.

They're seemingly making on-the-fly decisions to appease what they imagine is their majority fan-base.

This series is being run by fools though, with their ill-conceived & ad-hoc parity adjustments, 2020 round reductions, and odd "summer series" ideas.

People used to complain about Tony Cochrane, but he'd certainly be a welcome come-back if the opportunity arose.

[Umai Naa]

They're reigning teams in, who're taking the **** out of the rules if anything.

[JAFA851]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

They're reigning teams in, who're taking the **** out of the rules if anything.

Exactly this. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Sandgroper]

Weekend thoughts.

Congrats to SM on the Championship.
CL drove flawlessly all weekend.
Andre and Team so unlucky on Sunday
Youlden far to many errors this year for me
GT then Giz, amazing drive.
Nice to see Holdsworth get a trophy.