Bent (or not) cars, Wealth (or lack of) and Scrutineering (ex Goodwood thread)

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Henrik Pedersen

I just looked at the resultlist from Coppa Intereuropa if that was the event?

It states that Brendan Robert is lapping at 2.25.
The qualifying there are a: A.Lawrence in car no.3 Stanguellini, then in the race it is mr. Colassacco lapping at 2.23.

Interesting as "A. Lawrence" is no doubt the owner, also known as Lawrence Auriana....

[rogerwills]

Originally Posted by Brendan Roberts

As an infrequent visitor to these pages I cant help thinking that 9/10ths of all threads seem to end up in the same debate about legality, FIA compliance, scrutineering, suspiciously fast cars etc. I enjoyed reading Rowan Atkinson's column in Octane recently which expressed his view and aired the issue rather well I thought. I dont see that the concerns are likely to be addressed any time soon since no-one is motivated to do so, indeed if anything all organisers are more motivated to preserve the status quo. As to the extremely fast Stanguellini, which has been discussed widely, it has been re-scrutineered on more than one occasion and passed inspection even though the fuel arrives by special delivery in a Customs sealed container and the timing was seen being set up on a lap top! I had a good race with him at Monza last year, he eventually won I think, I was 3rd, but the interesting thing was that he lapped at pretty consistently at 1:25 and had a good battle until he spun then did a couple of 1:22 laps to make up ground and won by a whisker.......what a pro!

This puzzles me. Its not like FJ is short of cars on the grid. So why is the car invited to continue racing? So often these discussions come round to the point "yes, but the organisers won't throw the bent car out as they want the money...." but this is not the case here.

It also seems as an external observer, that the FJ crowd are a pretty tight bunch and everyone must talk about this car all the time. So why isn't the rest of the grid applying pressure to have the car either put back to how it should be or banned from running?

Perhaps coming back to your point Brendan about 9/10ths of the threads here coming back to cheating etc that the issue is wide scale apathy amongst competitors. It is not sporting or gentleman like to protest a car yet everyone sits and moans about this and that issue but does nothing about it.

[henk4]

I think this has to be dealt with politely. It is not always the car. I am sure all will agree that not all FJ drivers are of the same caliber (and age). Probably also not everyone has driven Daytona prototypes. So when some may complain about the car, capable hands behind the wheel will really influence the result.

[p261brm]

[Quote]Al Weyman(my tail housing kept coming loose)[Quote]
There you go man, screw it up tighter next time.

[john ruston]

Why?
I was at Monaco and that car was 4/5 seconds quicker than Dennis Welsh when he needed to be and Dennis was quicker than anything else.These Fiat engined cars did nothing in period.Its all to good to be true and not a one off drive.
If it looks like a duck,sounds like a duck it must be a .....
Many people moan about Hookey cars but nothing is going to be done about it as organisers want entries and entrants have a quick moan then go to the bar as it isn't that important compared with the rest of worlds troubles.

[Henrik Pedersen]

[QUOTE=john ruston;2555624]Why?
These Fiat engined cars did nothing in period.Its all to good to be true and not a one off drive.
QUOTE]
Yes, quite right. I really hope that some organizers read these pages and take action accordingly.

My very personal view is that the car in some aspect is illegal, and the owner/drivers knows this. How on earth these people can accept the cups, they are presented at a pricegiving, is be on my imagination.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Why?
I was at Monaco and that car was 4/5 seconds quicker than Dennis Welsh when he needed to be and Dennis was quicker than anything else.

I was at Monaco too and that was the rear engined/shark nosed car in 2006. That one was asked to be opened up. Owner/driver refused and packed up.
However, the Sharknose was also raced at the Revival last year. Was it then also suspiciously fast?

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Many people moan about Hookey cars but nothing is going to be done about it as organisers want entries and entrants have a quick moan then go to the bar as it isn't that important compared with the rest of worlds troubles.

that sums it up nicely

unfortunately more and more of the older historic fraternity are just going straight to the bar, well past moaning to whomever and wasting their breath.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

that sums it up nicely

unfortunately more and more of the older historic fraternity are just going straight to the bar, well past moaning to whomever and wasting their breath.

and to further work on their physical stamina to go even faster the next morning......

[terence]

Saddly there are quite a few who come under that heading,ie,retiring to the bar. Fortunately,there are also some who do not just roll over and die,if they had,there would not be investigations into the cars that have been 'moaned' about over the years. Griffiths/Bs/Cobras etc etc have/are being looked at.Some series organisers have done something concerning the bent cars, its now up to the rest to take the same steps and not give in to the general appethy that has blighted this country for so long!

[henk4]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Saddly there are quite a few who come under that heading,ie,retiring to the bar. Fortunately,there are also some who do not just roll over and die,if they had,there would not be investigations into the cars that have been 'moaned' about over the years. Griffiths/Bs/Cobras etc etc have/are being looked at.Some series organisers have done something concerning the bent cars, its now up to the rest to take the same steps and not give in to the general appethy that has blighted this country for so long!

It's appetite or apathy....
But you are right. Interestingly nobody wanted to buy a certain GT40, when that came up for sale at an auction earlier this year...

[terence]

Yes,sorry for the typo!. Perhaps the GT40 has a twin somewhere?

[john ruston]

Terry,Think reason on GT 40 is that is a road car made into a race car at race car money.Nothing to do with its spec which is the same as the quickest GT 40's in your wonderful 6 hrs Spa race.

[terence]

Thanks John. Spa? Wonderful? Saturday morning was! GT40 wise,think I'll buy a lottery ticket.

[Al Weyman]

It is not sporting or gentleman like to protest a car yet everyone sits and moans about this and that issue but does nothing about it.

Is'nt that a fact, also the stone throwing in greenhouse theory! I am a bit peed off at the moment over some of this but better not say too much here.

[john ruston]

Boys,No one is going to do anything about it apart from odd move to make it look good with 6 speed gearboxes in E's and capacities are nonsense.
The engines sizes at Spa 6 hrs would be a joke!

Best of luck with the crusade but its time wasted

[terence]

How can it be 'time wasted' John. Masters have taken action on 'B' capacity as well as some other organizers.Lets not forget that this mess will not be cleaned up overnight.It would be pointless if everyone just walked away from it but the likes of Simon H et al feel strongly enough to voice their opinion's so it must be worthwhile.

[john ruston]

And what good has it done?

[terence]

Apart from the dreaded Bs? Not too much------------yet!

[zefarelly]

I think Carol has been good with U2TC, some action has been taken, checks are being made, and generally speaking I think its pretty straight, One cannot however legislate for an arms race between preppers who are financed by ultra keen racers with unlimited budgets.

racing is an expensive hobby any time for most of us but its impossible to be vaguely competitive when that scenario is increasingly commonplace.

[compte deGraves]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Apart from the dreaded Bs? Not too much------------yet!

I think it is a question of the maths. If there are more people indicating that they will enter if the cheats are expelled then the cheats will be expelled. If there are 10 known cheats for every legal car waiting in the wings....then I am not sure there is much hope.

[rogerwills]

Originally Posted by john ruston

.....with 6 speed gearboxes in E's and capacities are nonsense.

6 speed now? I must watch my GT Racer DVD again, I'm sure I only heard 5. Or perhaps he has found some documentation to show a 6 speed ran in period now.......

[john ruston]

Some people must have proof and in several languages!

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Brendan Roberts

As to the extremely fast Stanguellini, which has been discussed widely, it has been re-scrutineered on more than one occasion and passed inspection

It does seem very unusual that a Stanguellini FJ could compete on terms (and even faster) than the comparable Lola and Gemini FJ cars (especially those with Ford power). If results from the 1960 season are reviewed it is evident that in period the English cars were superior to the Italian versions. In addition, by 1960 the Stanguellini and Taraschi were at the end of their development cycle while the Lola Mk2 and Gemini Mk2 were at the beginning of theirs and accordingly got faster as the season progressed. For example the Lolas started out with Ted Martin engines then changed to Cosworth and started with SUs but changed to Webers midway through the season.
In fact, the Lolas were so superior that in July 1960 they were "lent" to Ferrari/Stanguellini to have Stanguellini Fiat FJ engines fitted in order to determine whether it was the Lola chassis or the Ford engines that made them superior to the Stanguellini (it was both).
All of this tends to cast considerable doubt that a Stanguellini prepared to period specs would be close to a Lola prepared to period specs. I am in the fortunate position that I have a Lola Mk2 and a Taraschi FJ prepared to period specs (the Taraschi is very similar to a Stanguellini but perhaps a slighty better handling car due to it having a de dion rear set up compared to the Stanguellini's live rear axle). They are both driven by the same driver on the same tracks (at different times!) and the Lola is a significantly superior and quicker car.
From this analysis, it would be extremely questionable that a Stanguellini should perform as well as the car the subject of this discussion.
The Fiat FJ engine is limited in it's performance by inherent breathing problems. Additional power could be obtained by reconfiguring the inlet ports. However this would require significant machining or re-casting of the head (both illegal). Unless a scrutineer knew exactly what to look for, these modifications would not be evident to an untrained eye.
I have not seen the subject Stanguellni in the flesh but from studying photos it is evident that subtle changes have been made to it. These are only externally evident and internally it may be a different story....

[simon drabble]

Roger that is great colour and I am sure there is at least one scrute who will have read this.....