[Official] Mexican Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 18 of 22

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Um, think we've been here hundreds of times before!
I just think it amusing how some people see things 'as they are' and some are prepared to accept the reality. The reality in F1 is not what we are told or read about teams 'policy', more often than not in fact.
It's all very much debatable but not strictly relevent to this thread.

That can be said for both sides can it not?

Those who claim he was brought in as a clear number 2 have nothing but opinion. It has been said multiple times from those within Mercedes’ and Bottas himself that he isn’t a number 2.

Whether you choose to believe that or not is up to us as individuals, but if you choose not to believe it, then back it up with substantial proof

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

I think it's fair to say that any accusation of Bottas making it easier for Verstappen or was harder in defending Hamilton off the start is an incorrect interpretation.

Look how long and wide the straight is??? Verstappen was right behind him, and whichever way Bottas drifted to, Verstappen would've gone the other way. As it turns out, Bottas stayed on the outside 1/3 of the track the whole way, and Hamilton had the middle and inside 2/3s

Originally Posted by chunterer

Um, think we've been here hundreds of times before!
I just think it amusing how some people see things 'as they are' and some are prepared to accept the reality. The reality in F1 is not what we are told or read about teams 'policy', more often than not in fact.
It's all very much debatable but not strictly relevant to this thread.

I don't understand how you understand this, but others don't?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I think it's fair to say that any accusation of Bottas making it easier for Verstappen or was harder in defending Hamilton off the start is an incorrect interpretation.

Let me present the case for why Bottas made it easy for Verstappen.

In the sequence of frames below, you can see:
1 - The point where Bottas 'backed off', when he had Hamilton on the inside and Verstappen on the outside.
2 - Clear indication of how Bottas allowed Verstappen to take the racing line.
3 - The outcome of allowing Verstappen to take the racing line, as opposed to Hamilton's compromised line.


Had Bottas not backed off, took a line wide of Hamilton (but leaving a car's width) and compromised Verstappen then he would have helped his team's cause.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I don't understand how you understand this, but others don't?

Because to date no one has provided proof to the contrary. Rather than making assumptions or having baseless opinions I choose ti weigh my opinion based on those who actually know rather than an armchair enthusiast hiding behind a computer.

Now if you can provide definitive proof, then I’m open to change my mind.

[S griffin]

I've yet to see any actual proof that Merc have a designated #1 and #2. I mean the fact Bottas has won early on in a season plenty of times would suggest otherwise and I do believe they've always preferred to see the season out. And there is zero evidence of it being anything other

[crmalcolm]

Wolff has ‘discussed’ No.2 role with Bottas

Wolff says [moving over for Hamilton], is a team order that will remain in play as long as the championship battle continues. “It is very important because statistically, his odds to win the championship are very small compared to Lewis who is very much in the fight,” explained Wolff.

“We have discussed that and as tough as it is for a driver, there is no room for margin in this year’s championship.”

So whilst he may not contractually be a #2, he has been asked to perform this role in the latter half of this season.

[Akrapovic]

Mazepin ends his weekend by being ejected from a Mexican nightclub. Presumably this is Micks fault.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Let me present the case for why Bottas made it easy for Verstappen.

In the sequence of frames below, you can see:
1 - The point where Bottas 'backed off', when he had Hamilton on the inside and Verstappen on the outside.
2 - Clear indication of how Bottas allowed Verstappen to take the racing line.
3 - The outcome of allowing Verstappen to take the racing line, as opposed to Hamilton's compromised line.


Had Bottas not backed off, took a line wide of Hamilton (but leaving a car's width) and compromised Verstappen then he would have helped his team's cause.

Looked to me like Bottas had been told to let Hamilton through at the first corner and checked up to let Hamilton take the lead into the corner not realizing how fast Verstappen could take the corner around the outside.
I think he went to the middle of the track to prevent Verstappen jumping Hamilton off the start, but did not anticipate Max's start would be good enough to effectively get the jump on both Mercs.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Wolff has ‘discussed’ No.2 role with Bottas

Wolff says [moving over for Hamilton], is a team order that will remain in play as long as the championship battle continues. “It is very important because statistically, his odds to win the championship are very small compared to Lewis who is very much in the fight,” explained Wolff.

“We have discussed that and as tough as it is for a driver, there is no room for margin in this year’s championship.”

So whilst he may not contractually be a #2, he has been asked to perform this role in the latter half of this season.

Which is completely understandable and a far cry from the claims that he is a whipping boy, and was brought in as a number 2.

The same would be the case if Lewis was out of the championship fight, and is the same in any team where 1 driver is in with a shout of the title whilst the other isn’t

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by wnut

Looked to me like Bottas had been told to let Hamilton through at the first corner and checked up to let Hamilton take the lead into the corner not realizing how fast Verstappen could take the corner around the outside.
I think he went to the middle of the track to prevent Verstappen jumping Hamilton off the start, but did not anticipate Max's start would be good enough to effectively get the jump on both Mercs.

That may be the case - I don't disagree with this conclusion.
Not realising how fast Verstappen could take the corner is still making it easier for him?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Wolff has ‘discussed’ No.2 role with Bottas

Wolff says [moving over for Hamilton], is a team order that will remain in play as long as the championship battle continues. “It is very important because statistically, his odds to win the championship are very small compared to Lewis who is very much in the fight,” explained Wolff.

“We have discussed that and as tough as it is for a driver, there is no room for margin in this year’s championship.”

So whilst he may not contractually be a #2, he has been asked to perform this role in the latter half of this season.

A similar reason given when Bottas gave up the lead at Sochi in 2018.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

A similar reason given when Bottas gave up the lead at Sochi in 2018.

Not that I agree with that decision but Hamilton was leading the championship with Bottas in 5th with 5 races to go, so understandable.

You fail to mention the times where Hamilton has been told to hold station like Austria or hand back the position to Bottas in Hungary 2017…. Again, hardly a number 2 or whipping boy…..

[chillibowl]

Seems a bit irrational for Toto/Merc to lay any blame at Bottas' feet.

Either he is a capable driver to be treated as an equal to Lewis or he is a support driver to lewis...frankly Merc are always changing what is required from Bottas.

If he was a better driver then they credit him as, then he wouldnt put up with and if he is a worse driver then they credit him as, then how can they believe he can fill this ever changing role?

This constantly changing dymanic (Toto's rules of engagement) were fine when Merc held a solid advantage but the philosophy falls short when one does not have the dominant car.

And now that they dont have the dominant car anymore and the blame game starts up... it looks a bit like the band is about to fall apart?

To me that should be the story rather then what Bottas did? He is not the story of Merc.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Not that I agree with that decision but Hamilton was leading the championship with Bottas in 5th with 5 races to go, so understandable.

You fail to mention the times where Hamilton has been told to hold station like Austria or hand back the position to Bottas in Hungary 2017…. Again, hardly a number 2 or whipping boy…..

I didn't mention Austria and Hungary 2017 because weren't the circumstances different from Sochi?

[S griffin]

Holding station is something any team does when they are leading or are in a position where they can't get higher. Hungary 2017 was very different, it was returning the favour when something clearly wasn't going to work. Of course Sochi could have been handled a bit better, but the problem is when your quicker and the aero means you can't get past...

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I didn't mention Austria and Hungary 2017 because weren't the circumstances different from Sochi?

team orders non the less.

Youre using 1 example, 3 years ago to justify your view that he was brought in as a number 2......1 example in 5 years or around 100 races

....if thats the case, why did hamilton give the place back in Hungary and why didnt they just tell Bottas to move over in Austria? or if Bottas is a clear number 2, why allow him to win at all when hamilton is second, or why give him equal equiptment so he can fight for pole....

...if you want a number 2 then just go down the Ferrari route with Barichello or the way Webber was treated against Vettel.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Either he is a capable driver to be treated as an equal to Lewis or he is a support driver to lewis...frankly Merc are always changing what is required from Bottas.

Isn’t that inevitable as the season progresses? Had Bottas out-performed Hamilton in the early races then that Wolff/Merc ruthlessness would have favoured him. But Hamilton has massively out-performed Bottas because Hamilton is one of the best ever and Bottas is merely very good.

He’s become a number two because he’s consistently the second best driver in his team. Hence his job has become to support Hamilton’s title bid and get constructor points, both of which he failed to do at the weekend. That wasn’t his job at the start of the season, but at the start of the season he wasn’t 125 points behind his teammate.

[steve_r]

Roll on the next race and hopefully some better talking points.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

team orders non the less.

Youre using 1 example, 3 years ago to justify your view that he was brought in as a number 2......1 example in 5 years or around 100 races

....if thats the case, why did hamilton give the place back in Hungary and why didnt they just tell Bottas to move over in Austria? or if Bottas is a clear number 2, why allow him to win at all when hamilton is second, or why give him equal equiptment so he can fight for pole....

...if you want a number 2 then just go down the Ferrari route with Barichello or the way Webber was treated against Vettel.

I never said it was my view. I asked a question regarding his status in the team.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I think it's fair to say that any accusation of Bottas making it easier for Verstappen or was harder in defending Hamilton off the start is an incorrect interpretation.

I certainly don't think it is. If Bottas has taken up station further to the outside of the corner he would easily have ensured that Verstappen couldn't pass into T1 without making a rash move all,over the kerbs. Yes Bottas was on pole but I'd be amazed if there were no team orders imposed - I certainly would have required Bottas to not only ensure that Hamilton made a clean getaway but that Bottas disrupted Verstappen's challenge as much as he could. Wins for Bottas at the expense of his teammates title challenge are not something that Mercedes will be expecting for the rest of this season.

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

He’s become a number two because he’s consistently the second best driver in his team. Hence his job has become to support Hamilton’s title bid and get constructor points, both of which he failed to do at the weekend. That wasn’t his job at the start of the season, but at the start of the season he wasn’t 125 points behind his teammate.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Isn’t that inevitable as the season progresses? Had Bottas out-performed Hamilton in the early races then that Wolff/Merc ruthlessness would have favoured him. But Hamilton has massively out-performed Bottas because Hamilton is one of the best ever and Bottas is merely very good.

He’s become a number two because he’s consistently the second best driver in his team. Hence his job has become to support Hamilton’s title bid and get constructor points, both of which he failed to do at the weekend. That wasn’t his job at the start of the season, but at the start of the season he wasn’t 125 points behind his teammate.

and not just how the season progresses but how his time overall with Merc has progressed.

Bottas has played his part very well. effectively as a last minute replacement driver, he has delivered and in fairness has delivered with a lot less fuss then many other contractually/explicitly stated so called number 2 drivers.

Merc has gotten exactly what it wanted...until now that is and even in that the shortfall is entirely predicated on the fact that Bottas is exactly the driver (limitations and all) that they wanted for this season.

thats why i think its irrational for Toto to sort of act like its Bottas' fault that things are not working out now.

this may be harsh, but i get a flash of Flav here. not as sinister mind you but this passive aggressive attempt to lay the fault with Bottas/scapegoating of the other driver thing going on here.

obviously i am reading into things, i have no direct knowledge but this season (well so far anyways) Merc got beat in the factory (not enough updates) and they got beat on track (both in terms of speed and strategy).

so for me i see this as a failure of the team principle and not of the driver.

as an aside, i suspect things would have been different had Toto still had Lauda's council.

[Beau2]

It's pretty obvious (to me at least...) that Bottas is regarded as a number 2 within Mercedes even though they don't want to say it.

This season in particular he was given much less support than Hamilton even in the early European races. Toto's attempt to blame Bottas for the Monaco pit issues said it all to me - that rhetoric would never have been used if it was Hamilton. I don't think it is any coincidence that Bottas has had more mechanical issues than Hamilton during their time together - it has often felt like Mercedes 'give' up or at least focus much less on Bottas after a few races.

Bottas is certainly slower than Hamilton but he always was. He also seemed to be there in a supportive role rather than an Mercedes employing him with the thought he might get a title. I'm sure there were other options out there in late 2016 but they went with Bottas because he was a promising but not at the top level - a safe pair of hands, but won't consistently get close to Hamilton - much like how Barrichello was generally nowhere near Schumacher.
I don't think there is THAT much difference to him being a contracted No. 2 when it comes down it. He's had hi s odd good day with favours returned but so did Irvine/Barrichello.

[S griffin]

There is no way Bottas is a designated number 2, he’s too good for that

It’s a shame his season didn’t work out, but since when did Toto blame him for Monaco? I think they said it was one of those things. The team has struggled more than usual this year, even though they are still in the running for the title. I think it has affected everyone in the team to some extent. But I still seem them supporting Bottas

For me Bottas could have achieved more. He’s shown himself to be good enough to lead the team when he can. When Rosberg left at the end of 2016, he was the logical choice. Who else could they have chosen? And he did a good job that first year, just not as good as the consistent Hamilton. It’s just a shame there hasn’t more success for a driver of his talent

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It’s a shame his season didn’t work out, but since when did Toto blame him for Monaco? I think they said it was one of those things.

When he said this:

“Valtteri stopped a little too early, this meant the mechanic had to apply the impact wrench at an angle. The awkward angle damaged the wheel nut and we couldn’t bring it down.”

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

There is no way Bottas is a designated number 2, he’s too good for that

It’s a shame his season didn’t work out, but since when did Toto blame him for Monaco? I think they said it was one of those things. The team has struggled more than usual this year, even though they are still in the running for the title. I think it has affected everyone in the team to some extent. But I still seem them supporting Bottas

For me Bottas could have achieved more. He’s shown himself to be good enough to lead the team when he can. When Rosberg left at the end of 2016, he was the logical choice. Who else could they have chosen? And he did a good job that first year, just not as good as the consistent Hamilton. It’s just a shame there hasn’t more success for a driver of his talent

Barrichello was regarded as a huge talent in the mid-late 1990s - probably held in higher regard than Bottas was in 2016 - yet he got tied up in Ferrari's contract.

I don't think Bottas has it written into his contract to be a designated No. 2.
However, the occasional lack of support, multitude of mechanical issues and team orders calls suggests compared with his team-mate suggests that there no little difference between being a designated number 2 or not. The result is the same. People highlight the Ferrari examples because they took it to the extreme - however the affect on both drivers have been the same.

Re: Monaco; Toto made a comment that suggested Bottas didn't stop in his marks and therefore caused the issue. I think he think backtracked on those comments when it was revealed that Bottas had stopped pretty accurately.