HTP, FIA, EDA? Papers, what are they

[Tim Falce]

Can someone explain what these terms and any others regarding papers for historic race cars mean and what type of cars and years are eligible for each?

This stems from one or two of the treads regarding bent cars, straight cars and any other cars I keep seeing pop up, plus my mate runs a fairly modern BMW in so called historic racing (Al Weyman's lot) and I wondered how this and many other modern cars are eligible.

[terence]

Hi Tim,HTPs replace the original FIA papers in as much as there's one page missing from the original FIA version. The idea,originally intended to get all pre 65 cars onto a data base and therefore,stop any cloning of existing car's

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Hi Tim,HTPs replace the original FIA papers in as much as there's one page missing from the original FIA version. The idea,originally intended to get all pre 65 cars onto a data base and therefore,stop any cloning of existing car's

so do they not apply to post-1965 cars then?

[john ruston]

HTP serves for all Historics and beyond 66.Presumably up to 90 but without any end date as this changes year on year.

[terence]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

so do they not apply to post-1965 cars then?

Sorry David,wasn't very clear,was it!

[Al Weyman]

In our 'lot' we are IMHO a whole lot more sensible and the car does not have to be an 'original' at all. In other words if you wanted to race a Lotus Cortina you can simply use a 2 door 1300 base model shell and stick the required componetry in the thing and race it as an LC as I am sure is happening in the other more
'prestigious' championships anyhow but possibly in a more clandestine way.

There is a requirement that either the car model and/or component had to have had 5000 made in any one year or have been homologated as such but even that at the committee's discretion can be altered for example the inclusion of some Jaguar models. Its called flexibility but NOT a free for all and I think it works also some no longer available components like C/R Avenger gearboxes are allowed to be substitured with a Ford unit etc etc.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

In our 'lot' we are IMHO a whole lot more sensible and the car does not have to be an 'original' at all. In other words if you wanted to race a Lotus Cortina you can simply use a 2 door 1300 base model shell and stick the required componetry in the thing and race it as an LC as I am sure is happening in the other more
'prestigious' championships anyhow but possibly in a more clandestine way.

There is a requirement that either the car model and/or component had to have had 5000 made in any one year or have been homologated as such but even that at the committee's discretion can be altered for example the inclusion of some Jaguar models. Its called flexibility but NOT a free for all and I think it works also some no longer available components like C/R Avenger gearboxes are allowed to be substitured with a Ford unit etc etc.

Just the same as the FIA regulations have been since about 2000 with regard to the cars and with regard to the parts the same except the changes have to be approved by FIA Historic Motor Sport commission.

[john ruston]

Now I have a question for Mr Hall

Was about to buy a 50's Sports Car last month when I found it was not acceptable for HTP's.
The car was of a very well known manufacturer but it was the one with a different engine than the others manufactured.
It raced in California but not aware of race history in Europe.
Was told that papers could not be issued for car as no international race history.
Car was one covered and driven by Jenks in period.
No argument its real but what other parameters are used for agreeing to the papers.
Didn't buy the car because of the situation ,assume I could change motor to same as others in series but that would spoil the history of this actual car.Thought the whole idea was to preserve history not mess it up?
Is it possible to take a pragmatic view.

[terence]

Bit like a Griff then?

[john ruston]

This was a real steel car rather than one of those plastic things!
Whats the problem with Griff

[terence]

According to Mike Mooney,there is no international comp history,he should know!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Now I have a question for Mr Hall

Was about to buy a 50's Sports Car last month when I found it was not acceptable for HTP's.
The car was of a very well known manufacturer but it was the one with a different engine than the others manufactured.
It raced in California but not aware of race history in Europe.
Was told that papers could not be issued for car as no international race history.
Car was one covered and driven by Jenks in period.
No argument its real but what other parameters are used for agreeing to the papers.
Didn't buy the car because of the situation ,assume I could change motor to same as others in series but that would spoil the history of this actual car.Thought the whole idea was to preserve history not mess it up?
Is it possible to take a pragmatic view.

Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with international competition history complying with the International rules of the period.


I quote from the good book.
Sadly the concept of pragmatism within the echelons of authority at FIA is entirely alien. In ''The good old days'' it was possible to take a view, but nowadays the whole is driven by a different agenda.
My strictly personal view is that an overview of good sense should prevail but sadly.....

[john ruston]

Thanks Jeremy.Can I assume that the events run in California were not international?
The rules state that if I change motor I would get HTP's which distracts from its History ,amazing!

How do they judge Pre War cars?By the same rules and could Brooklands be considered international?

Just thinking out loud.

[L-G Sjöberg]

[QUOTE=Jeremy Hall;2567108]Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with international competition history complying with the International rules of the period.


QUOTE]

My mother tongue is not English so maybe I misunderstand the meaning of EITHER, the comma, and OR in the quote above, but the way I read it, the requirement for international competition history does not apply to [U]original competition cars, i.e if the car in question had an odd engine originally, than it should be eligible for an HTP, or...

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by L-G Sjöberg

My mother tongue is not English so maybe I misunderstand the meaning of EITHER, the comma, and OR in the quote above, but the way I read it, the requirement for international competition history does not apply to [U]original competition cars, i.e if the car in question had an odd engine originally, than it should be eligible for an HTP, or...

I suspect your understanding of English punctuation is better than many Brits! then again it may be a case of 'lost in translation from French' which is the usual excuse

[Peter Mallett]

As I understand it, it is intended to cover cars built from new shells but to the specification of the original competition version. In other words a Mk1 Capri shell could be built into a RS2300/2600 or even a 3500 but it must be built to exactly the same spec as the original competition version.

[L-G Sjöberg]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

As I understand it, it is intended to cover cars built from new shells but to the specification of the original competition version. In other words a Mk1 Capri shell could be built into a RS2300/2600 or even a 3500 but it must be built to exactly the same spec as the original competition version.

That is the way I understand it, too. If it is an original competition car with a genuine history, than the requirement for participation in an international race should not apply. Is there anyone around with an understanding of how FIA thinks, who could clarify this?

If I remember correctly, one FIA inspector managed to block the issuance of an HTP for a Formula Junior a number of years ago, since the owner could not prove that his car (a one-off) had participated in a race listed in the international calender in period. He actually showed that it had participated in an international race (Djurgårdsloppet in Helsinki) but was still denied the papers, since he could not prove that the race was actually listed as international even though there were lots of non-Finnish participants. To me it sounded like some personal vendetta, but maybe it was according to the FIA rules

[Peter Mallett]

Yes, but the bit we are reading is just about the specification of the car not whether it has international comp history. As it happens I think that bit about international competition is somewhat daft but I can see the point. As Jeremy says, a bit of reality would be a good thing.

[john ruston]

The original car was a mid 50's Sports .In those days there were few international races just the odd club job throughout Europe.Many of the fledgling races stopped in 55 after Le Mans.A non thinking judgement call would prevent the issuing of papers with the car in its original form based on the rules as written but change it and you can have them.I would have thought that keeping the History would be so much more sensible.What would have Jenks made of that?

Is there any form of appeal?

[Peter Mallett]

As you say, how many international events were there and what kind of cars took part?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

In our 'lot' we are IMHO a whole lot more sensible and the car does not have to be an 'original' at all. In other words if you wanted to race a Lotus Cortina you can simply use a 2 door 1300 base model shell and stick the required componetry in the thing and race it as an LC as I am sure is happening in the other more
'prestigious' championships anyhow but possibly in a more clandestine way.

There is a requirement that either the car model and/or component had to have had 5000 made in any one year or have been homologated as such but even that at the committee's discretion can be altered for example the inclusion of some Jaguar models. Its called flexibility but NOT a free for all and I think it works also some no longer available components like C/R Avenger gearboxes are allowed to be substitured with a Ford unit etc etc.

I was not really asking about series such as the CTCRC or CSCC that allow a car from a certain period to race that don't have FIA or whatever papers. I was asking about cars with specific papers that race with series such as the Masters or Equipe GTS and why is the Spa Six Hours restricted to pre 65 cars, what's with the magic date?

[terence]

Originally Posted by john ruston

The original car was a mid 50's Sports .In those days there were few international races just the odd club job throughout Europe.Many of the fledgling races stopped in 55 after Le Mans.A non thinking judgement call would prevent the issuing of papers with the car in its original form based on the rules as written but change it and you can have them.I would have thought that keeping the History would be so much more sensible.What would have Jenks made of that?

Is there any form of appeal?

You could try applying for 'Special' John,thats the route we had to take for the HRG.But that is another case of the car did compete in the 49 Spa 24hr,albeit not with the body it was given in 51/52,that it still has.

[Al Weyman]

Well thats one thing we agree on Tim, why that date indeed. It has actually been explained here before but I did'nt really grasp what they were on about. something about some form of competion changing, personally I think its to keep the 1st gen Camaro out as it would make the Mustang old news overnight (actually I say this tounge in cheek but maybe an element of truth) but it has also been explained to me within CTCRC that it would actully let the feared Mk1 Escort in, now that would really upset the apple cart wouldnt it? Can you imagine all the Angleboxes, Cortinas inc. LC's becoming obsolete overnight! You only have to look at CTCRC Pre 74's that I race in, more or less dominated by the Mk 1 RS2000.

[terence]

Six hr is 65 Tim,but the Eau Rouge Trophy is I believe 72.65 is period F but the six hr is upto that date.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Well thats one thing we agree on Tim, why that date indeed. It has actully been explained here before but I did'nt really grasp what they were on about. something about some form of competion changing, personally I think its to keep the 1st gen Camaro out as it would make the Mustang old news overnight (actually I say this tounge in cheek but maybe an element of truth) but it has also been explained to me within CTCRC that it would actaully let the feared Mk1 Escort in, now that would really upset the apple cart wouldnt it?

I believe we are talking about the change from Group 2 as was, to Group 5 for saloons and the equivalent changes of groups for sportscars and GTs.

It would still not allow the RS1600 into the CTCRC because that was a Group 2 car and is not eligible for Post historics or Group 1 so the feared Mk1 Escort has to be the 1600 GT which runs as I recall.

As to the big yanks, they ran as Group 1 after 69 but before were Group 5.

But even so that has nothing to do with the HTP which could still be got for the car built to a specific group/class.