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Old 18 Oct 2011, 00:08 (Ref:2973034)   #1
AMP Marshal
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Discussion of IRL and safety

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...ow-on-indycar/

Randy Bernard is a dangerous idiot, full stop.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 00:09 (Ref:2973035)   #2
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They know legal action is coming down the pike and they are going to do whatever they can to weasel out of it.

Just like Tony Renna's death, they tried to wipe away any traces that it actually happened. Supposedly and I say supposedly, every time a car is on track at indy motor speedway, 4 cameras are running. Those tapes of his accident were apparently wiped clean rumor says and as I recall the speedway acknowledged that the tapes were "lost" or the cameras were never running.

With this incident it was caught on live tv and there is no weaseling out of it. I can only hope the media will continue to press beyond the indy speedway PR BS and will push for a full accounting and criminal charges against the perpetrators.

As I have said many times, the hulman georges care nothing for the drivers, never have, never will.

At least CART always sought ways to improve driver safety, especially after severe or fatal incidents occurred and they had the best safety team in the world.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 00:27 (Ref:2973040)   #3
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Originally Posted by AMP Marshal View Post
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...ow-on-indycar/

Randy Bernard is a dangerous idiot, full stop.
In my opinion - A total incompetent Moron of the highest order he is. He is a clown that knows zero of what he talks about.

I'm a driver and there are risks in the particular work I do, I get hit hard sometimes and I've been hurt mildly. But we endeavor to make it as safe as reasonably possible and everyone I know that has a brain or lasts long in the business has the same goal. Whatever work we might be doing we want people to learn or to have fun and enjoy the day on track. Not to go home on a life flight chopper or dead in a box. I watched a guy get lifeflighted earlier this year in a stupid accident that should have never happened and I demanded and still demand changes to be made. If that doesn't make me popular I don't give a damn. Fortunately that guy ended up alright after a night in the hospital.

I have happened over the years to work with ex irl drivers that have been mangled or disabled permanently from tony george's little fantasy. They were guys just trying to enjoy motor sport, earn a living and to do so driving stupid cars on stupid tracks they should have never been on. The thing that people never see or care about is what happens after the headlines are gone, when these guys struggle with their injuries or end up with emotional, relationship and financial issues and struggle to survive.

Yes there is danger at speed and when physics come into play, but when you have a series that for 15 years just gets more dangerous and careless with a total disregard for safety or common sense, I have to put my foot down and call them on the carpet. Others need to grow a backbone and do the same or next time it is going to be a 1955 Le Mans accident where dozens or hundreds of fans get killed and what I ask will become of motorsport in the USA then?

Last edited by EvilPumpkin; 18 Oct 2011 at 12:40. Reason: edited to show that this is an opinion, not a statement of fact
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 00:38 (Ref:2973044)   #4
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A total incompetent Moron of the highest order he is. He is a clown that knows zero of what he talks about.

I'm a driver and there are risks in the particular work I do, I get hit hard sometimes and I've been hurt mildly. But we endeavor to make it as safe as reasonably possible and everyone I know that has a brain or lasts long in the business has the same goal. Whatever work we might be doing we want people to learn or to have fun and enjoy the day on track. Not to go home on a life flight chopper or dead in a box. I watched a guy get lifeflighted earlier this year in a stupid accident that should have never happened and I demanded and still demand changes to be made. If that doesn't make me popular I don't give a damn. Fortunately that guy ended up alright after a night in the hospital.

I have happened over the years to work with ex irl drivers that have been mangled or disabled permanently from tony george's little fantasy. They were guys just trying to enjoy motor sport, earn a living and to do so driving stupid cars on stupid tracks they should have never been on. The thing that people never see or care about is what happens after the headlines are gone, when these guys struggle with their injuries or end up with emotional, relationship and financial issues and struggle to survive.

Yes there is danger at speed and when physics come into play, but when you have a series that for 15 years just gets more dangerous and careless with a total disregard for safety or common sense, I have to put my foot down and call them on the carpet. Others need to grow a backbone and do the same or next time it is going to be a 1955 Le Mans accident where dozens or hundreds of fans get killed and what I ask will become of motorsport in the USA then?
+1, thanks for reading the link mountainstar, this guy has GOT TO GO.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 04:02 (Ref:2973079)   #5
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Originally Posted by AMP Marshal View Post
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...ow-on-indycar/

Randy Bernard is a dangerous idiot, full stop.
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And as a result, a 33-year-old father of two young boys is dead.
I am no fan of Randy Bernard but this author's allegation that he is directly responsible for Dam Wheldon's death is the lowest form of yellow journalism.

Show me direct evidence that Mr. Bernard deliberately compromised safety in the name of profits.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 04:14 (Ref:2973081)   #6
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I am no fan of Randy Bernard but this author's allegation that he is directly responsible for Dam Wheldon's death is the lowest form of yellow journalism.

Show me direct evidence that Mr. Bernard deliberately compromised safety in the name of profits.
It's the National Post, yellow journalism is all they've got
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 11:00 (Ref:2973213)   #7
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Revising history. They are trying to pretend it never happened.
I do agree with you. There is no valid reason to remove the stories building up to the race.

IRL have a history of glossing over anything negative. Just like they tried to cover up that near head on accident at Baltimore. Thankfully media outrage meant they failed, though nothing was really changed in their dangerously flawed procedures as far as I know, other than the driver getting suspended.

And a driver due to make his Indy Lights debut at Vegas, Mike Larrison, broke his back during his rookie test at Kentucky recently:

http://www.junioropenwheeltalent.com...g-lights-test/

When I was looking for this information, I didn't find any mention at the IndyCar site, surprise surprise.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 12:39 (Ref:2973254)   #8
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Hi folks. We were expecting a discussion to start regarding safety and that is absolutely fine and necessary. It's also totally understandable that emotions will be running high on this subject.

However, I would remind you that the rules of the forum still apply - particularly as they apply to defamation and not attacking other posters.

You are entitled to your opinion(s). But please ensure that they are stated as opinions, not as facts.

As with any accident, there are no doubt lessons to be learned. But that is rarely any comfort to those who have lost a loved one.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 14:51 (Ref:2973291)   #9
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I do agree with you. There is no valid reason to remove the stories building up to the race.

IRL have a history of glossing over anything negative. Just like they tried to cover up that near head on accident at Baltimore. Thankfully media outrage meant they failed, though nothing was really changed in their dangerously flawed procedures as far as I know, other than the driver getting suspended.

And a driver due to make his Indy Lights debut at Vegas, Mike Larrison, broke his back during his rookie test at Kentucky recently:

http://www.junioropenwheeltalent.com...g-lights-test/

When I was looking for this information, I didn't find any mention at the IndyCar site, surprise surprise.
Yeah, because when Jules Bianchi and Ho-Pin Tung got injured last year at the Hungaroring, it was all over the F1 site.



You guys are ****ing sick. Attacking Randy Bernard like vultures. He did his job. Unfortunate circumstance that we must now learn from and act on. Quit playing the blame game. That is in the past. And it does a disservice to Dan.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 15:40 (Ref:2973317)   #10
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You guys are ****ing sick. Attacking Randy Bernard like vultures. He did his job. Unfortunate circumstance that we must now learn from and act on. Quit playing the blame game. That is in the past. And it does a disservice to Dan.
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 21:57 (Ref:2973534)   #11
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Yeah, because when Jules Bianchi and Ho-Pin Tung got injured last year at the Hungaroring, it was all over the F1 site.
What would it have to do with the F1 site? Whether it was mentioned on the GP2 site, I don't know. My simple point which seems to irk you so much is that they ran a story hyping up the new entries for Indy Lights, yet when one of them is injured, there's no follow up as to why he didn't make the race. It's just swept under the carpet. I don't expect them to shout about it, but a mention seems right and proper.

(Not sure why my post was split off to here, I made it in this thread).
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 22:45 (Ref:2973561)   #12
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And a driver due to make his Indy Lights debut at Vegas, Mike Larrison, broke his back during his rookie test at Kentucky recently:

http://www.junioropenwheeltalent.com...g-lights-test/

When I was looking for this information, I didn't find any mention at the IndyCar site, surprise surprise.
It was reported on there at the time though...that's how I found about about it while checking on Peter Dempsey's progress in the series on there...
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 23:00 (Ref:2973568)   #13
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I don't like that article portraying Bernard as a bloodthirsty dragon getting his kicks killing Indycar drivers.

It was on Tony George's watch that cars, which behave like gigantic darts when they crash, came online. That's before Randy's time. The tubs do withstand their "flights" miraculously [Will Power, sore but safe] but I'm afraid a flying Dallara dart could, with ease, cause a LeMans '55, all over again.

It was under Randy's watch that this new supersafe Dallara was selected and introduced. They had so much safety in mind that the car looks more like a life-raft on wheels than a racing car what with the decision to compromise on open wheels.

However his idea of sticking on cold turkey taxi drivers and that stunt Travis Whateverhisnameis on the back of an overly subscribed grid in a track a fraction the size of Indy was LUNACY -- and he nearly pulled it off!

There is a dangerous discrepancy between Randy and reality. I was never impressed with the silly old management canard of appointing a man who knew nothing about the sport and that was 'what was needed'. No. You can't do that with motorracing, badmington maybe but not motorracing.

The Wheldon crash was caused by Cunningham, who's not a bad driver and a good lad, in a massive but otherwise conventional crash that was made lethal because we have cars that behave like whale sized darts when they crash at speed. It wasn't negligence on behalf Cunningham, it was just a racing mistake and it wasn't Bernard, as unsuited to his current role as he is by the evidence to date.

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Old 18 Oct 2011, 23:11 (Ref:2973573)   #14
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It was reported on there at the time though...that's how I found about about it while checking on Peter Dempsey's progress in the series on there...
I humbly retract what I said about this then - my apologies. At another forum people were asking for updates, and I thought I scanned the indycar site thoroughly (before finding the update on that other blog), but apparently not. I now see it was a footnote in an article about Star Mazda drivers testing. Thanks for putting me right on this.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 23:43 (Ref:2973591)   #15
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as mentioned around the board and in articles everywhere Randy inherited Indy car as the new boss- it is fast and dangerous, and every one who straps in knows it can be bad.
going airborne is ridiculous, no one plans or expects to do so. One life is precious, 33 more so.
the media and all racing can get behind this and say the truth. while Dan has passed, there is no way he wasn't loving passing ten cars in ten laps and going faster than any human can imagine, living as a legend as a champ, a 2x indy500 winner, he is immortal and now more than ever.
Every racer who has walked away from a bad accident still loves it and most still drive.
Mark Webber has dodged a few bullets in his career yet he still sees the safety improving, and is not letting up- stop demonizing Indy, ovals or Randy
drivers love racing and this is the big payout when it comes, see what went wrong, find a fix, and go racing and carry Dan's smile, greg moore's drive and Senna's guts and Wilbur Shaw's big heart (although a plane crash did him in) and keep racing because it is the most human and biggest thing racers do.
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 02:26 (Ref:2973631)   #16
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I am no fan of Randy Bernard but this author's allegation that he is directly responsible for Dam Wheldon's death is the lowest form of yellow journalism.

Show me direct evidence that Mr. Bernard deliberately compromised safety in the name of profits.
What profits? The irl is STILL losing money this year.

He did deliberately compromise safety by allowing 34 cars when LVMS specifically only asked for 28(too many halfwits on track), he also did so by originally coming up with the stupid idea to put outsiders into the race and then agreeing to Curt Cavein's ridiculous idea to have Wheldon race for the money thru a field of halfwits. He also deliberately compromises safety by allowing people with a long, long, long history of incompetence to work in race control and by having a completely incompetent and ill prepared "safety team" on hand.

He is the boss and in charge and there is a long history of no concern for safety or race control which has continued on his watch. They are still running the same old battlewagons that still have the same flat floor nose high ass down configuration with the same engines with the same longitudinal gearboxes with the same pack racing, on the same 1.5 mile ovals, with the same cheesegrater fences, with the same safety team that nearly ran over a driver this year, that jerked several drivers with possible spinal injuries out of the cockpit, that also went to a fire and couldn't get the fire hose running, with the same incompetent rule book and race control "team", that has no rhyme or reason for the decisions it takes which mocks the sport and it's integrity and with the same lack of driving standards with drivers ill prepared to pack race open wheel cars at 225 mph.

The irl has been exposed for what it is.

All I see is people shucking and jiving from taking responsibility. These people loaded the gun and then on Sunday it was fired with tragic results.

It's like being on a firing range and a negligent discharge happens that kills a person. This situation would be like people making excuses, then rationalizing it and not changing a thing. When in reality, responsibility needs to be accepted by those in charge of safety, the individuals themselves involved and the situation needs to be examined for what future changes need to be made.

The irl has never done any of those things except make excuses and only made band aid patches only when it's arm is totally twisted.

CART on the other continually improved safety, especially after incidents occurred and always looked at ways they could get better.

Today all I saw was all these people making excuses and rationalizing this or that, so all the people on this forum that thought the irl would make changes, well like I said it isn't happening. They don't care they never have cared.

The new big booty car fixes little. As I understand it, it is still going to have the same nose high flighty aerodynamics and it's been revealed they are aiming to equalize horsepower between chevy and honda. So you will still have the same halfwit drivers, same pack racing, same safety team, same race control, almost nothing is going to change one iota.
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 02:31 (Ref:2973633)   #17
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You guys are ****ing sick. Attacking Randy Bernard like vultures. He did his job. Unfortunate circumstance that we must now learn from and act on. Quit playing the blame game. That is in the past. And it does a disservice to Dan.
He didn't do his job. He's done a poor job as I have laid out previously.

Even in the past few months he has had multiple chances after many incidents have occurred to make changes and he has failed to do so.

I think rationalizing, making excuses, deflecting blame, avoiding responsibility, refusing to analyze what has happen and push for changes does a disservice to Dan Wheldon.
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 03:03 (Ref:2973647)   #18
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There is no IRL.

Dan Wheldon's legacy is being soiled with some of this talk. For the last couple few months of his life he was testing the next generation of safety features that were to go onto the new cars after this race. If you have a beef with Randy Bernard and his officiating, I'm right there with you, but I think you're taking this too far.
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 05:48 (Ref:2973669)   #19
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Crash

"He did deliberately compromise safety by allowing 34 cars when LVMS specifically only asked for 28(too many halfwits on track)"

^If this is true, that alone will be Manslaughter.

The more I read about IRL and the way things were managed the more I think the whole series is simply illegal. You can not put someone's life in danger in order make money.

These IRL drivers are outright stupid. 220mph in an open wheel car on an oval is not racing.
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 06:58 (Ref:2973684)   #20
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some of the comments in this thread are as ridiculous as the article linked in the first post.

The style of racing in the series has been the same for a decade. The cars have been the same for a decade. The leading drivers have, for the most part, been in the series for as long as the current chasis has been.

The drivers have talked about the danger of these ovals (primarily Texas though) for a decade, yet every week and every year they still strapped their helmets on and raced.

Randy Bernard does not wholly and solely make the rules.

People have been craving more cars for years, they deliver 34 and now that is being promoted as the reason for the tragedy. Accidents of that nature were just as likely to happen when the IRL was running 18 cars in 2003/4 as it was last Sunday

At the end of the day it was a racing accident, pointing the finger at anyone in particular is just aiming blame for the sake of it

Yes lessons will be learnt, as they should, but singling out Randy Bernard is attrocious, a man who has put his heart and soul into trying to rebuild the series...
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 07:56 (Ref:2973718)   #21
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Was 34 cars too much for Las Vegas? Maybe yes...how many people said this in the days before the race? I think nobody...all of us asked for cars count, ignoring the problem...

In my opinion, there are no doubts about safety of these cars...the same Las Vegas crash is the proof of how much these cars are safe: with all that has happened, 14 drivers have go away with essentially nothing (or nothing as severe), a sign that the car is solid and secure...Wheldon died for that cruel twist of fate that, whatever efforts you make, makes it impossible to have 100% Safe and nothing tragic happens in racing...
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 09:02 (Ref:2973734)   #22
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He did deliberately compromise safety by allowing 34 cars when LVMS specifically only asked for 28(too many halfwits on track), he also did so by originally coming up with the stupid idea to put outsiders into the race and then agreeing to Curt Cavein's ridiculous idea to have Wheldon race for the money thru a field of halfwits. He also deliberately compromises safety by allowing people with a long, long, long history of incompetence to work in race control and by having a completely incompetent and ill prepared "safety team" on hand.
15 cars were involved in the accident, not 34. Even when you consider other cars around that avoided it all, it was not the whole field involved. This accident could have just as easily happened if there were 20 cars on the grid.

As for Wheldon racing from the back for the money, I fail to see how this could have caused the problem. Considering he was collected in someone elses accident, it was no different than if his car broke down in qualy and he had to start from the back of the grid. And he's a racing driver, I don't think he has driven at 90% throughout his career but thought he'd put the extra effort he never used at Indy to grab $5 million.

I'd like to know how incompetance in race control contributed to this accident, and how many injuries can be attributed to race control, and whether anyone has even questioned how good the indycar safety team is. And deliberate?! What would anyone gain from having a deliberately bad safety team? That's ridiculous!

It is lucky you are only posting this on here, because if some of this was published Berhard would have sued against these comments well before any legal action would be taken against the series.
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 09:17 (Ref:2973738)   #23
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http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...r-oval-madness

Robin Miller sums up the entire problem very well here, its the low power high downforce style of racing thats the inherant problem.
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 17:04 (Ref:2973923)   #24
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He didn't do his job. He's done a poor job as I have laid out previously.

Even in the past few months he has had multiple chances after many incidents have occurred to make changes and he has failed to do so.

I think rationalizing, making excuses, deflecting blame, avoiding responsibility, refusing to analyze what has happen and push for changes does a disservice to Dan Wheldon.
Again, Randy Bernard's job was to give some buzz to IndyCar. Up until 11 laps in that was a success. You can ***** and moan about who he hasn't fired all you want, but to blame him for Dan's death is about as disgusting a thing you could possibly do.
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 17:08 (Ref:2973926)   #25
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The more I read about the happenings of the Indycar series of the past few years, and the lead up this event, the more sickened I am. This is a death that could have, and should have been prevented.

Like many tragedies, a lot of people put blinders on or ignored obvious evidence because they just hoped nothing would go wrong. I have analyzed many engineering disasters in my line of work, and I see a lot parallels between many of those and this accident. This accident and fatality did not come from freak incident, but a series of incidents that have all occurred in the past and were ignored. I do believe there are solid grounds for a civil or even criminal suit against several of the involved parties. Some of the quotes and decisions made by the Indycar CEO will no doubt come back to haunt him - and they should. He is not the only one though...

While mountainstar's posts are filled with emotion (don't blame him), they are spot on as far as analyzing this sequence of events is concerned. I can understand why the truth is troubling for many people - it should be.

I think back to the CART race at Texas Motorspeedway many years back that was cancelled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_Firehawk_600). Someone looked at all of the data and had the courage to say this isn't right - we have a recipe for a tragedy here. CART made a brave decision that was highly criticized at the time - but they likely saved a life or two. Sadly, nobody was brave enough to make the same decision before this Las Vegas race. Based on the comments from drivers and commentators, there was no shortage of doubt and concern before this race. Adrian Fernandez said "I have never seen drivers so on edge as they were this morning". There were lots of other comments - including some from Wheldon itself. Sadly, nobody acted... and the series of events that everyone was predicting occurred and a life has ended.
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