Discussion of IRL and safety

[fieldodreams79]

^very well said, Jay. My sentiments almost to the T.

[Paradise City]

The drivers were physically dizzy is the reason why Texas was cancelled. They almost couldn't physically drive after any length.

I agree that there was many warnings. The near invulnerability of the tub itself made everyone complacent.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I think Randy Bernard's problem is he's doing this job in the face of adversity and much of that adversity is of his own making, primarily due to his ignorance of the sport.

He says he is taking 'history' lessons regarding IndyCar racing. It would seem that instead of learning from history's mistakes, he's been applying them.

Personally I don't think he should be in the job and that's not a personal attack on Randy Bernard. If IndyCar is to be the pinnacle of US open wheel racing and get back to the level of respect it once commanded, in world motor-sport, then you need someone who understands motor-sport, not rodeos.

[Xpunk75]

I think it's time for a fundamental change from top to bottom for this sport in terms of oval racing. Go back and watch some of USAC stuff on You Tube or the even the Cart races after the USAC era. The cars break apart from each other after only a few laps which greatly reduces the threat of danger.

These cars never break apart and they are constantly running wheel to wheel. It use be exciting when you saw wheel to wheel racing but now we see it all the time and it's become a sick game of chicken. That's what this Vegas race was, a sick game to see who had the most balls to run around this track flat out at 225 miles an hour without flinching. It's not racing its something else I'm not interested in watching. These drivers are very brave and I've come to care a great deal about them but I refuse to watch them be shot in the air and watch them crash like shot down airplanes in front fans sitting in grandstands.

They need a completely redesigned Aerodynamic package that is going to cut the down force for these cars by at least 50%. They need to get off these high bank ovals meant for NASSCAR. They need flatter ovals like milwaukie and Indy.

Maybe if Tony George really wanted to save open wheel oval racing he should have invested all the money he burned destroying the sport into building more tracks viable and safe for the type of racing he grew up loving as a boy.

Anyway its a sad story and I for one will miss Dan a great deal. He was always one of my favorites in what has been a very dark decade for Open Wheel Racing in North America, at least for me.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Xpunk75

These cars never break apart and they are constantly running wheel to wheel. It use be exciting when you saw wheel to wheel racing but now we see it all the time and it's become a sick game of chicken. That's what this Vegas race was, a sick game to see who had the most balls to run around this track flat out at 225 miles an hour without flinching. It's not racing its something else I'm not interested in watching. These drivers are very brave and I've come to care a great deal about them but I refuse to watch them be shot in the air and watch them crash like shot down airplanes in front fans sitting in grandstands.

I agree totally with your theory, but how exactly do you apply this?

If the cars run split up in little packs, you'll hear howels about how 'boring' the racing is, you'll hear howels about the difference between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'. Whilst just about everyone of us on here was cringing for the first 11 laps on Sunday, i'd bet most 'casual' fans were loving how close everyone was running...

In this day and age, for many a top level motorsport category, 'spec racing' is all the go due to keeping costs in order. Everyone running the same cars and therefore pretty much in the same place on the track.

Indycar looked into different cars next year to go along with the different engines, but all the chassis manufacturers said it was too expensive if they didn't get exclusive deals.... so how do you win?

The difference in engine performance next year might go some way to breaking the field up abit.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by awegrzyn

"He did deliberately compromise safety by allowing 34 cars when LVMS specifically only asked for 28(too many halfwits on track)".....

......These IRL drivers are outright stupid. 220mph in an open wheel car on an oval is not racing.

Not true. 200-220 mph has been a considered average speed around the brickyard for over 20 years. Yes its quick but its been the state of open wheel oval racing for more than two decades. (Rick Mears pole speed was 224.113 mph in 1991)
That is the problem with a lot of the comment. It is simply not informed.

Its like some else saying Dallara failed in their F1 efforts, and that they were not as good as a firm like Lola. Again not true. Dallara built cars for a private team that actually achieved a podiums in 1989 and 1991, along with a number of top six places over 4 years (1988-1991) before the team turned to Lola and got a dog of a car that caused the team to leave F1.

I have no problem with people issuing an opinion about something current but if you are going to make a statement and want to be taken seriously you need to do your homework. Don't try to rewrite history.

[fomoco]

this says it all:

http://www.speedcafe.com/2011/10/20/...-1-hrt-window/

[Jay]

Originally Posted by racer69

I agree totally with your theory, but how exactly do you apply this?

If the cars run split up in little packs, you'll hear howels about how 'boring' the racing is, you'll hear howels about the difference between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'. Whilst just about everyone of us on here was cringing for the first 11 laps on Sunday, i'd bet most 'casual' fans were loving how close everyone was running...

CART seemed to have things figured out pretty well with the Hanford device they were using in the late 90s without massive pack racing. Nobody said this was boring...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYF-9SJ1h0

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Its like some else saying Dallara failed in their F1 efforts, and that they were not as good as a firm like Lola. Again not true. Dallara built cars for a private team that actually achieved a podiums in 1989 and 1991, along with a number of top six places over 4 years (1988-1991) before the team turned to Lola and got a dog of a car that caused the team to leave F1.

I have no problem with people issuing an opinion about something current but if you are going to make a statement and want to be taken seriously you need to do your homework. Don't try to rewrite history.

Dallara made cars for Scuderia Italia, who achieved two 3rd positions in 1989 and 1991. Hardly comparable to Lola.

[Tim Northcutt]

Here is what AJ and Mario have to say about it:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor...19204/1?csp=ip

[bella]

i've read this thread with interest so far, and think that there needs to be a serious look taken at everything in indycar. driving standards and ability levels included.

i'm aware there's the rookie test, but there's some drivers (no names please, in the interests of no blame) who simply are too young/too inexperienced/in way over their heads/ran out of talent in f3 back in europe. but how do you quantify who they are? and how do you stop them risking theirs and everyone elses lives?

it's about minimising the risks, isn't it? if you're going to try and redesign the cars so they act in a particular way during accidents then surely you have to try and reduce the risk of the accident happening in the first place?

[leonidas]

Wouldn't it be simpler just to run at ovals such as Loudon, Phoenix, Milwaukee, taking downforce off the cars to slow things down. Surely that would also bring back some driver skill into the equation? Indy could be kept as a one-off with cars running something akin to a handford device.

They need to listen to Dario and the drivers. I think 'entertainment value' has to be secondary after this. The Mario incident, cars getting as high as the top of catch fences and Dan's death means there has to be a calm rethink. It will only take one car in the crowd to cause a backlash that could destroy the sport.

Excessive risk does not even make commercial sense. How much bigger would the audience for Indycar be if F1 stars like Coulthard could be persuaded it was safe to race in the series? I suspect that in ten years running high downforce indycars on high banked superspeedways will seem as ridiculous and dangerous as running Formula 1 GPs at the Nordschleife.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by bella

i've read this thread with interest so far, and think that there needs to be a serious look taken at everything in indycar. driving standards and ability levels included.

i'm aware there's the rookie test, but there's some drivers (no names please, in the interests of no blame) who simply are too young/too inexperienced/in way over their heads/ran out of talent in f3 back in europe. but how do you quantify who they are? and how do you stop them risking theirs and everyone elses lives?

it's about minimising the risks, isn't it? if you're going to try and redesign the cars so they act in a particular way during accidents then surely you have to try and reduce the risk of the accident happening in the first place?

The problem regarding accidents in this case, is cars never took off like these Dallaras do and it doesn't matter what type of track they race, look at the Mario footage at Indy in 2003. The cars they raced prior to this never had this problem.

Fortunately the new car, which is supposedly ground effect, will eliminate the need to have such a high downforce loaded on to the wings and the elimination of the flat underside will make it less prone to taking off.

[bella]

fair point about the nature of the accidents, and the fact that concequences are different currently.

but i think driving standards and abilities is something we need to look at as a sport-wide thing but you need to start at the top. i'm not entirely sure why it's different now to how it was 10 years ago, perhaps the economy falling over has encouraged the massive wallet, no results boys back out again.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Jay

CART seemed to have things figured out pretty well with the Hanford device they were using in the late 90s without massive pack racing. Nobody said this was boring...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYF-9SJ1h0

Some of the most thrilling and tense sport I have ever seen was the classic oval dice between Greg Moore and Michael Andretti under the watch of the Hanford device. Let banked ovals be banned for safety if that is the final ruling of the racers themselves, but it let not it be said that the racing so sacrificed was boring. Quite, the contrary it can produce the finest sport ever. These were epic races.

The quality of the drivers is a question that is a tough nut to crack. NASCAR sweeps up the prime-produce and what's left are the leftovers. It's no surprise. After all it's a sport that is costly to participate in and it is a series with no money and no viewers - save Indy. NASCAR is wealthy, primetime viewing. It's all part of the fall-out of the Indycar implosion of '96. It's either these drivers or no drivers.

That said while they are unimpressive, I think people overstate the lack of quality on the bulk of the Indycar grid. There's no Mario Andretti, Danny Sullivan today but even in their era they had plenty of cheque book charlies with blank CV's running around then too.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

That said while they are unimpressive, I think people overstate the lack of quality on the bulk of the Indycar grid. There's no Mario Andretti, Danny Sullivan today but even in their era they had plenty of cheque book charlies with blank CV's running around then too.

this is the bit of the logic i find difficult to reconcile too. i think that cause it used to happen doesn't mean it's fine to happen now, but on the other hand you can have enough money to buy a midfield drive but not enough for a top one in your junior series and come out of it looking pretty shoddy on paper.

i find it startling that someone who simply wasn't anywhere good enough at racecraft in europe can end up in indycar/irl/whateveritis driving at greater average speeds and in far closer proximity to others on circuits that require a huge amount of skill and perception. to me there's something wrong there, especially when we're applying such engineering and research to the dangerous weapons they're driving - what about the guys holding the trigger?

/sensationalist tabloid similie

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by bella

this is the bit of the logic i find difficult to reconcile too. i think that cause it used to happen doesn't mean it's fine to happen now, but on the other hand you can have enough money to buy a midfield drive but not enough for a top one in your junior series and come out of it looking pretty shoddy on paper.

i find it startling that someone who simply wasn't anywhere good enough at racecraft in europe can end up in indycar/irl/whateveritis driving at greater average speeds and in far closer proximity to others on circuits that require a huge amount of skill and perception. to me there's something wrong there, especially when we're applying such engineering and research to the dangerous weapons they're driving - what about the guys holding the trigger?

/sensationalist tabloid similie

I'm not saying it's fine at all. I'm saying it's not unprecedanted but the important point I'm making is it's impossible to address this unless the sport recieves a money and popularity transfusion and the average young talented driver and his supporters climbing through the ranks see the series as a viable career goal again.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I'm not saying it's fine at all. I'm saying it's not unprecedanted but the important point I'm making is it's impossible to address this unless the sport recieves a money and popularity transfusion and the average young talented driver and his supporters climbing through the ranks see the series as a viable career goal again.

Good point and that's what's plagued the IRL from the outset, no big promoters and no big sponsors and once CART had gone, Tony George failed to attract those sponsors and promoters to the IRL. I think personally because they knew the IRL was a Mickey Mouse operation, with few the big name drivers, racing on cookie cutter ovals that no one had heard of, with a small TV audience and poor track attendance, so they cashed in their lot with NASCAR. That's where the money and exposure was.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I'm not saying it's fine at all. I'm saying it's not unprecedanted but the important point I'm making is it's impossible to address this unless the sport recieves a money and popularity transfusion and the average young talented driver and his supporters climbing through the ranks see the series as a viable career goal again.

sorry, i wasn't implying that you were, i was suggesting it as the general consensus that tends to get presented as a reason.

you're right though - most if not all young drivers want to be paid to race cars, and until that can happen, the most gifted aren't going to aspire to indycar or whatever it may be known as at that particular point in time.

[HCForums]

A lot of people are now saying that open wheel cars don't belong on ovals. Why don't they belong on ovals? Have we all forgotten about the 1911 Indianapolis 500. These cars have been racing on ovals long before NASCAR even existed. I think open wheel cars need to be on ovals. And I was not a big fan of the calendar the last couple of years. In my opinion it needs to be 50/50. And we also need the big ovals, not only tracks like Iowa and Milwaukee. Just think about the rich history of the Michigan event, it deserves to be on a calendar of a series that has decided to call itself IndyCar again.

Ovals are not the problem. The problems are with the car and the way they need to race. And they way they need to race is like they are running a restrictor plate NASCAR race; racing in packs. It means the car doesn't no longer make any difference, and there's actually little you can do as a drive to gain an advantage. First up this means that inexperienced drivers can run up front with the veterans. And it means they can do this in equipment, nowhere near as good as the Penske's or Ganassi's. So you have drivers who don't have that much experience, running on ovals or close to other cars, in IndyCar's that are much more nervous or unstable. But how do the veterans gain any advantage, how do they win. You need to show more balls than the other drivers. Go for gaps, or stay in the throttle, when others back out. It also means you have to block or push another driver up a lane (we could see that at Kentucky). And then the most difficult part: sidedrafting. This technique is a way to really make a difference. But it's also very dangerous, because wheels can interlock (we saw this at Vegas just before the crash). So basically you have a way of racing where both car and driver don't make that much of a difference. So you are gonna apply extreme measures to make your way to the front.

Then there's the cars. The Dallara has been around for quite a few years and it's a very safe car. I think the crash at Vegas proved that. When we saw cars flying and crashing into each other most people thought that a few drivers would be seriously injured. And if Dan's car would not have gone into the fence everybody would have walked away without any serious injuries. This says a lot about the cars. But the problem with the car is that when air gets underneath it, it takes off like a plane. Renna, Mario, Marco, Rice, Hornish, Franchitti, Briscoe, Power, Mann, Wheldon, De Silvestro, it's becoming a long list. I'm no scientist so I can't really explain this. And let's not forget, open wheel cars are going to fly when they touch at those speeds (Webber at Valencia). But in the world of American open wheel racing we have never seen anything like what has been happening in recent years. Maybe it's the high downforce they run, I don't know. But it's something they should work on, so I hope the new car prevents this. Look at what the ACO did in recent years. We had LMP's flying all over the place. The ACO immediately took action and started working on the problem. They have been researching why the car's took off. They have been making adjustments, like changing ride height or adding a shark fin. In short, the ACO is doing something to prevent it. I can't recall seeing the Indy League doing something about it. Not in 2003, not in 2011.

I said before that the problem was with the cars and the ovals. But some blame also needs to go to the people behind IndyCar. It's a very touchy subject and you can't go around blaming people just like that. Especially not in a situation like this. But we can all agree that they made some dodgy decisions the last couple of months. Let's compare it to Formula 1. The FIA also tried to spice things up this year by introducing new tyres and DRS. But they didn't simply introduce them, it was a work in progress and they listened to both the teams and the drivers. Drivers complained about too much pick-up, Pirelli listened and tried to make tyres which leave less pick-up. The FIA worked together with the tracks and the drivers about where to place DRS. Remember them banning DRS in the tunnel or through Eau Rouge. And then there's IndyCar who simply introduces a double file restart. Anybody remembers what happened at St. Pete. Is there a good reason why we saw them have spread out double file restarts the rest of the season. Maybe race control also didn't think it was feasible to have them start double file. Letting them run 34 cars on track was a stupid idea. Letting them run on a track like Vegas was even more stupid. And don't say that the drivers should have said something before the race or that they should have protested. What I meant to explain with the comparisons is that you need be proactive as an organisation. For example they made some huge mistakes in race control in 2011. Why don't do something about it. Formula 1 did when they were making bad decisions, they introduced the retired racing drivers. You see what I mean.

So what they need to do. They need to break up the pack racing. Make sure the cars can't run flat out on the ovals. They don't need to run on tracks like Vegas, which are too fast and have fences close the track. They need to make sure the new car stays on the ground. And last but not least they need to have a proper team of people behind the IndyCar Series. Nothing is wrong with thinking about the entertainment factor. NASCAR proved that. But you need to make smart and rational decisions. Some things are simply not gonna work. Putting 34 IndyCar's on the Las Vegas Motor Speedway was not gonna work. All the fans watching the race noticed that after five laps. And after about another five our fear became reality.

I do agree that at this moment in time we need to remember Dan Wheldon. But there needs to be a proper investigation and if there's any blame these people need to be punished somehow. IndyCar has been dangerous for years, and this crash could have easily happened at another track. But there were so many factors on Sunday that increased the possibility of this happening. And I think that is why for so many people their sadness turned into anger.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by HCForums

A lot of people are now saying that open wheel cars don't belong on ovals. Why don't they belong on ovals? Have we all forgotten about the 1911 Indianapolis 500. These cars have been racing on ovals long before NASCAR even existed. I think open wheel cars need to be on ovals. And I was not a big fan of the calendar the last couple of years. In my opinion it needs to be 50/50. And we also need the big ovals, not only tracks like Iowa and Milwaukee. Just think about the rich history of the Michigan event, it deserves to be on a calendar of a series that has decided to call itself IndyCar again.

Ovals are not the problem. The problems are with the car and the way they need to race. And they way they need to race is like they are running a restrictor plate NASCAR race; racing in packs. It means the car doesn't no longer make any difference, and there's actually little you can do as a drive to gain an advantage. First up this means that inexperienced drivers can run up front with the veterans. And it means they can do this in equipment, nowhere near as good as the Penske's or Ganassi's. So you have drivers who don't have that much experience, running on ovals or close to other cars, in IndyCar's that are much more nervous or unstable. But how do the veterans gain any advantage, how do they win. You need to show more balls than the other drivers. Go for gaps, or stay in the throttle, when others back out. It also means you have to block or push another driver up a lane (we could see that at Kentucky). And then the most difficult part: sidedrafting. This technique is a way to really make a difference. But it's also very dangerous, because wheels can interlock (we saw this at Vegas just before the crash). So basically you have a way of racing where both car and driver don't make that much of a difference. So you are gonna apply extreme measures to make your way to the front.

Then there's the cars. The Dallara has been around for quite a few years and it's a very safe car. I think the crash at Vegas proved that. When we saw cars flying and crashing into each other most people thought that a few drivers would be seriously injured. And if Dan's car would not have gone into the fence everybody would have walked away without any serious injuries. This says a lot about the cars. But the problem with the car is that when air gets underneath it, it takes off like a plane. Renna, Mario, Marco, Rice, Hornish, Franchitti, Briscoe, Power, Mann, Wheldon, De Silvestro, it's becoming a long list. I'm no scientist so I can't really explain this. And let's not forget, open wheel cars are going to fly when they touch at those speeds (Webber at Valencia). But in the world of American open wheel racing we have never seen anything like what has been happening in recent years. Maybe it's the high downforce they run, I don't know. But it's something they should work on, so I hope the new car prevents this. Look at what the ACO did in recent years. We had LMP's flying all over the place. The ACO immediately took action and started working on the problem. They have been researching why the car's took off. They have been making adjustments, like changing ride height or adding a shark fin. In short, the ACO is doing something to prevent it. I can't recall seeing the Indy League doing something about it. Not in 2003, not in 2011.

I said before that the problem was with the cars and the ovals. But some blame also needs to go to the people behind IndyCar. It's a very touchy subject and you can't go around blaming people just like that. Especially not in a situation like this. But we can all agree that they made some dodgy decisions the last couple of months. Let's compare it to Formula 1. The FIA also tried to spice things up this year by introducing new tyres and DRS. But they didn't simply introduce them, it was a work in progress and they listened to both the teams and the drivers. Drivers complained about too much pick-up, Pirelli listened and tried to make tyres which leave less pick-up. The FIA worked together with the tracks and the drivers about where to place DRS. Remember them banning DRS in the tunnel or through Eau Rouge. And then there's IndyCar who simply introduces a double file restart. Anybody remembers what happened at St. Pete. Is there a good reason why we saw them have spread out double file restarts the rest of the season. Maybe race control also didn't think it was feasible to have them start double file. Letting them run 34 cars on track was a stupid idea. Letting them run on a track like Vegas was even more stupid. And don't say that the drivers should have said something before the race or that they should have protested. What I meant to explain with the comparisons is that you need be proactive as an organisation. For example they made some huge mistakes in race control in 2011. Why don't do something about it. Formula 1 did when they were making bad decisions, they introduced the retired racing drivers. You see what I mean.

So what they need to do. They need to break up the pack racing. Make sure the cars can't run flat out on the ovals. They don't need to run on tracks like Vegas, which are too fast and have fences close the track. They need to make sure the new car stays on the ground. And last but not least they need to have a proper team of people behind the IndyCar Series. Nothing is wrong with thinking about the entertainment factor. NASCAR proved that. But you need to make smart and rational decisions. Some things are simply not gonna work. Putting 34 IndyCar's on the Las Vegas Motor Speedway was not gonna work. All the fans watching the race noticed that after five laps. And after about another five our fear became reality.

I do agree that at this moment in time we need to remember Dan Wheldon. But there needs to be a proper investigation and if there's any blame these people need to be punished somehow. IndyCar has been dangerous for years, and this crash could have easily happened at another track. But there were so many factors on Sunday that increased the possibility of this happening. And I think that is why for so many people their sadness turned into anger.

That's a good post and an interesting contrast between how the FIA/F1 went about things as opposed to IndyCar's race control.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Here is what AJ and Mario have to say about it:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor...19204/1?csp=ip

Just a bunch of vapid PR dribble, blub, blub, blub, 2012 car fix everything, blub, blub, blub, the irl million times more safe, blub, blub, blub, it's daaneeejerous so too bad,

More excuses and rationalization.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bella

this is the bit of the logic i find difficult to reconcile too. i think that cause it used to happen doesn't mean it's fine to happen now, but on the other hand you can have enough money to buy a midfield drive but not enough for a top one in your junior series and come out of it looking pretty shoddy on paper.

i find it startling that someone who simply wasn't anywhere good enough at racecraft in europe can end up in indycar/irl/whateveritis driving at greater average speeds and in far closer proximity to others on circuits that require a huge amount of skill and perception. to me there's something wrong there, especially when we're applying such engineering and research to the dangerous weapons they're driving - what about the guys holding the trigger?

/sensationalist tabloid similie

Can you imagine running wheel to wheel with Pippa Mann at 225 mph?

Terrifying thought.

[Livininthinair]

I agree the blame game is a hard one to play especially with this being such a hard to swallow tragedy. You are very correct in your comparison between FIA and IRL, there needs to be a feeling coming from the organization that this will be investigated and there will be changes made but so far nothing... Yes the new car (that is long overdue) will make things a little better but, there is a perfect storm going on of too many cars, wrong track configuration, catch fencing that is designed for big heavy Nascar type cars, too much $$ on the line, drivers that are poss. not qualified to run at those speeds with that many other cars around them. The list is getting longer and no one is standing up with any type of responsability for what happened, and how the thought process must move forward from here to prevent it from happening again. I think the silence is speaking volumes about the type of leadership the IRL currently has. I blame no one person but there are too many factors at play in this for someone to not stand up and say things will be different from now on. Racing is dangerous but this is just too much to swallow all at once, we all hope something will change - but will it...

[KSR88]

Oval racing at certain tracks has always been dangerous.....it always will. You are near terminal velocity very close to a wall. Whether it is old sprint cars at Winchester or Indy cars at high bank tracks the deal is the same.
Indy car is not managed all by Randy Bernard--he was appointed! The entire Indy car magmt structure has been struggling to find sponsors and support in the face of NASCAR. The poorly conceived event at Las Vegas where they baited a $5M hook for a non-full time competitor to run a 225mph bull ring was a really bad idea. It apparently was approved by the Indy Car mgmt team. They don't have the Chase so they tried to juice their last race with a circus trick. The team owners of the few major teams had to approve this and had to know it was risky business and at best some chassis were going to get trashed.
Indycar is a dim shadow of what it used to be when Penske could get Mercedes to make a special engine for just one race. They are now old, ugly spec cars---the new car is even uglier to my eye....but it is cheap. They need a sharp technical director to keep Randy Bernard and the apparently greedy owners in check.
The operating group had to think the $5M deal and the 34 cars-virtually the entire inventory of the soon to be obsolete chassis was worth the risk. The Hans device has bred alot of bravado IMO.