[WEC] Rebellion Racing

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by knighty

there is a part of me that suspects oreca intentionally bum-steered rebellion to keep them away from Toyota on the track, but they will never admit this......I can imagine Oreca contributed to such an awful choice, but who am I to say......

??? Sorry, that literally makes no sense whatsoever.

[Victor_RO]

A shame to lose the RV8KLM, it was the loudest screamer at Le Mans last year.

[Deleted]

You can still hear version of it in the GT300 Toyota Prius can you not

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Chiana

??? Sorry, that literally makes no sense whatsoever.

What he's saying or how he said it?
Because what he's saying is logical, although probably incorrect.

Oreca designed what seems to be an awful car. The post you replied to above is asking whether Oreca might have done that on purpose due to Oreca's links to the Toyota program.
I however, think that Oreca did a bad job for one obvious reason, and that reason is easily explained by Oreca directly:

"We designed this car in record time!"

Oreca championed this as a good thing, but in my opinion it is not a good phrase to hear about the design of anything.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

What he's saying or how he said it?
Because what he's saying is logical, although probably incorrect.

Oreca designed what seems to be an awful car. The post you replied to above is asking whether Oreca might have done that on purpose due to Oreca's links to the Toyota program.
I however, think that Oreca did a bad job for one obvious reason, and that reason is easily explained by Oreca directly:

"We designed this car in record time!"

Oreca championed this as a good thing, but in my opinion it is not a good phrase to hear about the design of anything.

What makes it an 'awful car'? Sure it's doing rather similar performances to the old B12/60 but you can't make any comparisons of modern privateer car to the factories because of $$$$$$$$ differences and increasing development war and EoT shenanigans, so the only possible chassis you can compare it to is the Kodewa-Kolles-Experiment. And until that project is properly running (no overweight + pro drivers) even that is waiting for judgement.

The engine performance was lacking for sure, I said that late last summer already, but that had nothing to do with Oreca design.

Oreca might have said 'record time' (and you know, knowing this sort of thing it really was an achievement), but that still resulted in 12 month design/constructing phase and caused Rebellion to miss the pre-season testing + first race of last year. Doing it any slower would've meant no Le Mans, is that what you wanted? Hello Dome.

In any case, why would've Oreca wanted to "sabotage" them? Oreca helps Toyota in track operations but that's pretty much the extent of their relationship, you really think they would harm a chassis of their own design in order to keep the distance between two? That's crazy talk. Besides there's no way this team and car would've ever been close to Toyota, not unless ACO lowers the minimum weight to 650kg or something absurd like that. That's just the way it is.

I'm sure Oreca would love to sell more of these chassis around, but as we know the privateer side of the pond is going through rocky faces (and ACO isn't blameless for that).

What I would like to say though is that they should've designed the chassis with more engine options in mind, the time it seems to take the modications seems like forever.

[chernaudi]

IMO, Oreca basically designed an updated Oreca 03 with torsion bar front suspension, a raised platypus nose, and a roof.

And like the Oreca 03 and other Courage LC70 derivatives, they designed it around using NA engines only pretty much. This means that using turbocharged engines requires a ton of modifications to the car to accommodate a more aggressive cooling system.

And it's not like they can use the micro-tube radiators, oil coolers and intercoolers like Audi and Porsche use, as well a Toyota (sans intercoolers for their NA engine) due to cost.

Also, I think that Oreca designed the R-One with an eye to have the ability to build LMP2 coupes out of the tubs, much like how Onroak/OAK designed the Ligier LMP2 to LMP1 chassis rules to have their bases covered for the LMP2 version and if any customer wanted to take one LMP1 racing.

Problem is that either Oreca focused a lot on the possible LMP2 version or designed it around Rebellion's original desire to use the Toyota V8. The car as an LMP1 machine, sorta like the Kolles/Lotus LMP1, seems to be rushed in quite a few details, whether this was a cost consideration or that Rebellion didn't want to run their grandfathered Lolas beyond Silverstone I don't know.

IMO, it seemed like Rebellion had some issues getting the R-One to work how they wanted it, though in fairness it seemed like several of those issues had to do with the relatively underpowered Toyota V8, which unlike the factory version and without a hybrid system, wasn't a good match for the car, let alone the LMP1 fuel consumption regs. I'm uncertain if reverting to the 2013 and earlier air restrictor BOP regs would've done them many favors with the 3.4 V8.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Interestingly, Rebellion Racing's late choice to opt for the AER engine somewhat confirms that ByKolles were well inspired to opt for that very same engine last year. ByKolles will now start the season with an advantage over their direct competitor, which will spice up the battle for the corresponding FIA Endurance Trophy.

[CTD]

Let's remember that the Engine is only a part of the total package of a good Sportscar.
Yes, it is one of the most vital ones, but the Rebellion R-One is shaken down and run in - the team can focus solely on the engine part.
Kolles however still has a lot of work to do on the entire car, including the Aero, which is often the hardest part to get right.

[chernaudi]

Biggest thing with the R-One is that it's whole packaging--ultra shallow side pods, and overall aero tuning with the bodywork--is seemingly insanely tightly packaged, things that it seems to have shared with the Courage LC70/Oreca 01 and Oreca 03.

That's fine when you have NA engines which don't need a ton of cooling system items to keep them within a mechanically tolerable temperature range.

In short, this is a situation where instead of having a bulky package that you can scale down fairly easily, Rebellion and Oreca with the AER turbo V6, they now have to shoe-horn in extra cooling system items in an extremely tight package.

For example, if we though that the Audi R18's side pods going back to the 2011 car were really shallow, the R-Ones were even more shallow and tightly packaged.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Chiana

A - What makes it an 'awful car'? Sure it's doing rather similar performances to the old B12/60 but you can't make any comparisons of modern privateer car to the factories because of $$$$$$$$ differences and increasing development war and EoT shenanigans, so the only possible chassis you can compare it to is the Kodewa-Kolles-Experiment. And until that project is properly running (no overweight + pro drivers) even that is waiting for judgement.

B - The engine performance was lacking for sure, I said that late last summer already, but that had nothing to do with Oreca design.

Oreca might have said 'record time' (and you know, knowing this sort of thing it really was an achievement), but that still resulted in 12 month design/constructing phase and caused Rebellion to miss the pre-season testing + first race of last year. C - Doing it any slower would've meant no Le Mans, is that what you wanted? Hello Dome.

D - In any case, why would've Oreca wanted to "sabotage" them? Oreca helps Toyota in track operations but that's pretty much the extent of their relationship, you really think they would harm a chassis of their own design in order to keep the distance between two? That's crazy talk. Besides there's no way this team and car would've ever been close to Toyota, not unless ACO lowers the minimum weight to 650kg or something absurd like that. That's just the way it is.

I'm sure Oreca would love to sell more of these chassis around, but as we know the privateer side of the pond is going through rocky faces (and ACO isn't blameless for that).

What I would like to say though is that they should've designed the chassis with more engine options in mind, the time it seems to take the modications seems like forever.

A - I didn't say definitively that it's an awful car, I said it seems awful. And I say that because Rebellion themselves have been very disappointed with it.

B - Yes, the engine has nothing to do with Oreca, which is why it has nothing to do with a discussion about Oreca's design.

C - Nope. That's not at all what I'd like, Rebellion are my (joint) favourite team, and I'll always love to see them at Le Mans regardless of what car they have.

D - In my opinion Oreca wouldn't have wanted to sabotage Rebellion at all, I never said or implied that they did, indeed I said the opposite.
What I said was that I believed that Oreca have accidently designed a car that isn't great.

[Deleted]

Word 'logical' would imply sabotage when it's used as reference to the post of knighty But yeah okay points taken.

Anyway, I'd say Rebellion has been disappointed with the gap to factories (again) = the regulations and ACO promises. Not the car.

[DistortedSmile]

Terrible news for my ears, by far the best sounding cars last year.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Word 'logical' would imply sabotage when it's used as reference to the post of knighty But yeah okay points taken.

Anyway, I'd say Rebellion has been disappointed with the gap to factories (again) = the regulations and ACO promises. Not the car.

The word 'logical' says only that I can see the logic of his argument following from one point to the next, but even if you read that as me implying that I agreed with him then surely me explictly stating immediately after that I think he's incorrect would more than negate that?

Rebellion are certainly disappointed with the regs, but according to good sources such as Autosport and Daily Sportscar they are/were also disappointed in there own car.

Hopefully, the new engine can give them a big boost, I really love these guys for not giving up in their quest to defeat the factory teams.

I also seem to e in a minority regarding the sound of the Toyota engine. I honestly did not like the sound. But surely that noise was mostly/partly down to the R-One's exhaust?
Has anyone heard the AER in the flesh?

[TF110]

The gt300 Prius sounds much the same because the engines are alike. I dont think it was the exhaust. Should lend credibility to the fact the TS030/040 engine is different, when you hear them.

[ThatGuy]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

I also seem to e in a minority regarding the sound of the Toyota engine. I honestly did not like the sound. But surely that noise was mostly/partly down to the R-One's exhaust?
Has anyone heard the AER in the flesh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOB...ature=youtu.be

Its a video, but it's basically what it sounds like. Luckily I caught the Lotus right after the Rebellion went by, so you can make a decent comparison.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOB...ature=youtu.be

Its a video, but it's basically what it sounds like. Luckily I caught the Lotus right after the Rebellion went by, so you can make a decent comparison.

Nice! I need to get to cota. You can hear a big difference between the cars, not sure I like one more than the other, but good to hear the variety.

[knighty]

My honest opinion is the Rebellion chassis is a good piece of kit, and it has attracted admiring glances from many other LMP1 teams, but the Toyota V8 engine choice was just poorly researched, misguided and awful.......and they paid a heavy price for not properly doing their homework, I guess nobody will ever admit the truth, as it will be just plain embarrassing for either Rebellion, Toyota or Oreca........but I have my suspicions based on the Oreca-Toyota relationship...... versus Rebellions lack of powertrain knowledge.

Certainly Rebellion were expecting to get a BOP break with the lousy V8 Toyota engine, and they got it, unfortunately the rather obvious downside was the engine started drinking fuel like a drain and they need more pit-stops as a result....... for any well seasoned powertrain engineer this was easy to predict for such a high revving engine......."fools gold" is a good phrase here.

I have worked in the auto & motorsport R&D industry for many years, and when you pay your competitor for consulting work, there is normally only two outcomes, 1) you go backwards, and 2) you lose a lot of money quickly........when I worked in WRC I saw a lower team get utterly fleeced (ripped off) by a front running (winning) WRC chassis team who are also an automotive consulting firm, the lower team never went any quicker, in fact - slower.......its a bit like Ferrari and Sauber, would Ferrari ever be happy with being regularly beaten by Sauber - no, hence they supply them B-grade engines.......Were McLaren happy when Force India started beating them, no, so they withdrew their R&D support staff almost immediately from Force India.......were Mercedes happy with Honda potentially delving into the McLaren-Mercedes 2014 car, no, so they gave McLaren the engine updates as the very last priority Mercedes customer team with a 3 race delay.....just to completely screw them over and keep them slow and un-competitve.....nice B-)

[Gingers4Justice]

So in other words Knighty, you're expecting a big gain in performance for Rebellion?

If so, it's a real shame they won't make Silverstone as I'd have good money on them beating the Nissans pretty comfortably by the end of the 6 hours. By Spa, that carrot may have already been taken away from them.

There were times last season when the R-ONE was as close to the R18 as the R18 was to the other factory cars in qualifying and practice. And quite often, we'd see them keep on the tails of the Audis for a fair few laps and even overtake them and keep them behind for a couple of laps (!). Single lap pace, they really aren't too bad considering their lack of testing. It was race pace that really did it for them, and that would be consistent with Knighty's criticism of their fuel consumption, who's been an outspoken critic of that Toyota powerplant for quite some time.

And if that AER engine is as good as some are saying, the CLM has a lot of work to do on the chassis to not be completely blown away by the Rebellions.

[TF110]

The RV8KLM was made for a different 'formula'. The fuel flow era vs an engine that's 6 years old? Not hard to say a new power plant was in need. I think the CLM will be much stronger this year. It was running overweight but still was close in qualifying.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

So in other words Knighty, you're expecting a big gain in performance for Rebellion?

If so, it's a real shame they won't make Silverstone as I'd have good money on them beating the Nissans pretty comfortably by the end of the 6 hours. By Spa, that carrot may have already been taken away from them.

There were times last season when the R-ONE was as close to the R18 as the R18 was to the other factory cars in qualifying and practice. And quite often, we'd see them keep on the tails of the Audis for a fair few laps and even overtake them and keep them behind for a couple of laps (!). Single lap pace, they really aren't too bad considering their lack of testing. It was race pace that really did it for them, and that would be consistent with Knighty's criticism of their fuel consumption, who's been an outspoken critic of that Toyota powerplant for quite some time.

And if that AER engine is as good as some are saying, the CLM has a lot of work to do on the chassis to not be completely blown away by the Rebellions.

Yes mate, the toyota v8 engine was without doubt the weak link for rebellion in 2014, with the AER lump im now expecting them to get stuck right into the manufacturers with an engine producing in the region of 800 to 900nm of torque and 650hp......the torque figure is about double what they had before with toyota, honestly i expect rebellion WEC podiums in 2015.

[templer]

Originally Posted by knighty

Yes mate, the toyota v8 engine was without doubt the weak link for rebellion in 2014, with the AER lump im now expecting them to get stuck right into the manufacturers with an engine producing in the region of 800 to 900nm of torque and 650hp......the torque figure is about double what they had before with toyota, honestly i expect rebellion WEC podiums in 2015.

Do you really think this seriously. You have always posted very interesting and realistic things but this is a bit of a dream.
Of course will the AER engine be the better one for Rebellion though the chassis was not designed for a turbo engine.
But there are 8 works cars out and even if we think that Nissan will have some problems there are still 6 cars from Toyota, Porsche and Audi. Where do you see a podium. All these cars test thousands of miles, and how many miles will Rebellion do.
A private team does not have the money and the ressources to beat a works team in normal conditions even if they have a car which is as good. The R-One is not bad, but Toyota and Porsche were far away last year, and i think the only way that will change for this year is that Audi will be much stronger

[Deleted]

Yeah gotta agree with templer.

The *best* Rebellion can hope pace wise is that when at Le Mans couple of factory teams will eventually & inevitable get stuck in garage repairs for 10-X laps or whatever, their pace is still good enough to keep that new improved position and not get re-passed in couple of hours time (like has almost always been the case). Also it would be nice PR wise if the Q times were somewhat closer and they could hang up behind the works cars a little longer at the start of the race.

[WMUCarGuy]

At this point, I kind of wonder why they don't just move down to P2 and kick ass. Especially now that there aren't separate podiums for P1H vs. P1L. They'll never truly compete with the factory cars and there's very little to brag about finishing 8th or 10th in class, so why not move down to P2 where they could actually compete. They could probably even convert the R-Ones to P2 spec without too much hassle.

There is the sunk cost of building and developing the P1 and the allure of racing in the top class, but when you're playing in a sandbox with four factory teams, it all kind of seems like a waste.

[TF110]

They need a good bit more fuel flow to keep up with the factory cars. Even if that happens, theyll be losing out to the acceleration of those hybrids still.

[WMUCarGuy]

Originally Posted by TF110

They need a good bit more fuel flow to keep up with the factory cars. Even if that happens, theyll be losing out to the acceleration of those hybrids still.

They'll need more fuel flow, way more power and way less weight. In amounts the ACO isn't going to give them...