Formula Ford safety, its not an issue!

[Geva-Nelson]

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the safety of the tube-framed Formula Ford chassis. We had a MAJOR shunt this weekend and the driver came out unscathed, apart from a slight headache.
The chassis is fine too, which for me, says enough about the safety of a Formula Ford.



or you guys can check the video on http://www.cpz.nl/events/2006/pinksterraces/racecam

just click on the button Van Uitert Formula Ford. The crash happens just after the second corner after the start.

Again, driver and chassis are OK.

Your opinions please!

[tux]

cor blimey that ws a big one glad he was ok

have seen some big accidents in formula fords at combe and everyones been ok after them to

[Asp]

That was a very high speed shunt, and I'm glad everyone was ok.

I doubt very much that FFord safety simply "is not an issue" though.
If it wasn't an issue, then safety requirements wouldn't have moved on, and an accident like that would have serious consequences.
And, even though that safety for the driver has dramatically improved and more and more drivers are walking away from hugely dramatic accidents; there's still safety in Formula Ford races for spectators, marshals, pit teams, etc...
But, critically, it's "more and more" drivers walking away from accidents. It's not all, and it never will be. There's always that 1 in a million accident that will have devastating results. But, that's motorsport, it's dangerous (it says so on the back of your tickets), and everyone accepts it.
IMHO, things get more dangerous when people take more risks when they feel that their car is indestructable, thus potentially causing more accidents, so that 1 in a million accident is more likely to happen.

[ss_collins]

the Long term safety of carbon tubs is questionable - I've just done a piece on the ageing of composite chassis and in the lower formulae (FBMW for example) they are perhaps not as safe as they first appear. Its in the current issue V16N7, but I think spaceframes are the way to go. Whether steel or composite is another matter

[heel'n'toe-no]

With the greatest respect gentlemen, the recent forums that I remember on the TENTHS were about the older formula fords 1600's.

I agree that the accident to which you refer was a big one. I would contest that the chassis is not very old. It looks like a new Ray from the photo, I could be wrong (And usually am), however, it is more the 1970's and 1980's chassis that were in question.

I don't remember a 2000+ Ray chassis ever having a suspension mounting just drop off the chassis whilst driving down a straight.

I am very happy that this chap got out relatively unhurt, the incident looked scary to say the least, but, please let's not lose focus on the older chassis's to which the original forum was directed and especially let's not be so dismissive about Formula Ford safety.....It is a concern for those of us who race in the formula. (Or in my case....make the numbers up, and drive round a bit. )

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by heel'n'toe-no

It looks like a new Ray from the photo, I could be wrong (And usually am)

Mygale?

[carsten.meurer]

pretty nasty one !

the tires did theire job pretty well too !

the case is surely not about a comparison of new proper carbon and spaceframe chassis.
but when they age, the spaceframe becomes the one to have !

surely you are unlikely to see 30 year old formula bmw race in 2035 ...

they will have deteriorated till then ! and most likely have lost the efficency to absorb any impact lomg before !
absolutely impractical for joh block racers !

[heel'n'toe-no]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Mygale?

As I said - I'm usually wrong.
What ever it is John...It looks new to me.

[Barry Pomfret]

It is also important that he was wearing a Hans device which no doubt saved him from some serious whiplash with the head on impact and rapid deceleration.

[Century]

There is nothing wrong with the safety of Formula Ford cars, Nathan Freke had a massive off in his 2006 Mygale in testing at Oulton Park. The data shows impact at 120.4 mph carrying 9.4g into the barriers and 8.5 on the rebound. The impact was frontal and removed 3 corners, but he was unhurt, and the car was fine in the races that weekend. You can try to make things safer, but motorsport is potentially dangerous, but not as dangerous as crossing the road, or riding a pushbike - and at least the medics are on hand. I would suggest that if we are not careful there will be airbags in the cars, bumpers all round, and call it banger racing.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by Century

There is nothing wrong with the safety of Formula Ford cars

Please refer to post 5....the original Forum discussion was about older chassis

[ss_collins]

It is also important that he was wearing a Hans device which no doubt saved him from some serious whiplash with the head on impact and rapid deceleration

Actually the impact angle looks to be about the limit of effectivness of Hans - 30 deg - note the wall and car are at an angle.

(as discussed elsewhere has is only designed to stop BSF - other claimed benefits are not proven - and in fact the decel to the head can be more severe wearing a hans - with concussion risk increased)

Indeed would you see a 30 year old FBMW race - no, and thats the point - to date the spaceframe has not been improved upon as a long term car.

[Walshy]

As I've said before, fate!

He could have that accident again at a slightly different angle and it could have been the end of him. Cheerful eh........

But you see what I'm getting at. You can only build a certain degree of safety into something that is primarily dangerous. You also have to look at the opinion that if they build the cars too strong, the weak link gets broken, the driver!

The car has to absorb a certain amount of the energy. The same as any road car. They have to be designed to absorb impact now. The airbags etc only cushion the blow. And indeed, in the same ways, just like a HANS device, the airbag is not a proven thing yet. I know of at least a couple of people that have had nasty neck injuries caused by airbags.

But designers of safety devices can't design a device around the fact that every incident is going to be identical. There not. So all they can do, is aid in the impact. Sometimes, the assistance of a safety device is not enough.

But that's racing. Nobody makes us do it!!!!!!!!!!

Cheerful bedtime story that one.

Off to bed. I'll be sleeping with one eye open tonight then.

[JustinDawkins]

That was a good one! I think essentially the statement above is correct - they are pretty safe nowadays.

The crash structure in the nose section will have helped reduce the impact significantly which is something all cars have nowadays. It is quiet similar to the accident I had at Oulton last year with a front on impact. Its also very similar to Chris Chiz's accident about a month after mine (his was bigger - 88mph and 99mph front-on respectively) and we both walked away with bruising. I think if we had been in older cars (even as recent as my old rf90) then we could have suffered chassis/ankle damage and possible wishbone intrusion as well.

Also there is very little protection head-wise in an older car. If I so much put my 90 in the gravel I would have to be careful no to bang my helmet against the chassis, and equally there are cars with nothing there at all - I a thinking Pat Blakeney's Vector!!!

Historics and Classics would be mush worse still and roll-over a lot easier.

Essentially I am happy I have a newer car with impact protection all round (nose, side panels, side pods) and head protection plus a much beefier chassis than a pre-93.........that's still as light as my 90

[ss_collins]

still don't understand why FF doesn't use Vee style anti decapitation bars...

always remember a spectacular accident is usually safer as what makes it spectacular is the disspation of energy.

Bear in mind the Hans was designed for one type of accident - head on with +/- 30 angle.

[heel'n'toe-no]

[QUOTE=ss_collins]still don't understand why FF doesn't use Vee style anti decapitation bars...
QUOTE]

Vee style what???

What are these? Where are they on the cars? How do they prevent decapitation? What sort of incident are they designed to prevent decapitation in?

[mattray]

It's a diaganol bar welded from the roll bar to the top of the cockpit on the sides. If you go upsidedown say on the armco, if you think about it you are pretty vulnerable for the armco or another car sliding along the top of the chassis, through your neck and stopping at the roll bar.

Makes the cars look a bit ugly though

Enjoy Brekky!

Matt

[StephenRae]

I have added bars from the roll hoop to the dash on my 84 Reynard. There is a weight penalty but I do feel less vulnerable.

[Geva-Nelson]

The car is a 2005 Mygale, Its all well and true that the cars are safer, as this crash shows but we musn't forget that the HANS System did its job very well and im glad to hear that if you want to race a formula car in holland next year, HANS is mandatory. The crashbox was in 6 pieces but all the brakefluid containers and such were unscathed as well. The car will be ready in no time

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by StephenRae

I have added bars from the roll hoop to the dash on my 84 Reynard. There is a weight penalty but I do feel less vulnerable.

We haven't done that, but like many pre 80's Formula Fords our PRS only had a single roll hoop for about the top 10 inches. My original car was flipped at Silverstone and the roll hoop folded over. Luckily the driver was fairly short but was still in hospital for a few weeks. A friend of ours did the same thing at Mallory and ended up being paralysed from the neck down. Having seen that, the first thing we did was fit an extra roll hoop similar to an RP26 Royale.

Most Formula Fords from the 80's onwards are much safer, especially in the roll hoop area, and other safety features have improved things, although I do think modern FF's have a much wider track with spindley suspension which can get knocked off much more easlily!

[heel'n'toe-no]

Originally Posted by mattray

It's a diaganol bar welded from the roll bar to the top of the cockpit on the sides. If you go upsidedown say on the armco, if you think about it you are pretty vulnerable for the armco or another car sliding along the top of the chassis, through your neck and stopping at the roll bar.

Makes the cars look a bit ugly though

Enjoy Brekky!

Matt

I agree, does look ugly. Judging by the AVATAR of ss_collins it would appear to me that rather than decapitate you would just have the top of your head sliced off.....Is it me or does anyone else see this?

Begs the question - Why bother? ........ or is it the case that to drive a vee you need to have already had a frontal labotomy

ok - I'll get my coat

[Triple J Motorsport]

Having owned and crashed a Mygale SJ01 (in fact the car that Benoit finished 2nd in that race in) I can tell you how amazingly strong they are.

Modern FF are so much stronger than the older cars if I was racing an old FF with no roll where the dash is and had the same crash I did at the festival I wouldn't be here now.

On the same note a Hans device would have probably not let my head move to the side when the car hit my head. Also I was lucky it was the flat straight floor.

[Mackmot]

I strongly believe Formula Fords are far safer and more sensible than tupperware tubs.

Our BMW had a 1.9g crash at Westfield at Brands and smashed in half. The tub took a blow to the side from a wheel and it is now completely destroyed.

The whole idea of wheel tethers is pointless on these kind of chassis as in both BMW and Renault V6 cars that I have worked on the fixings just get pulled out of the tub or the upright. Kevlar tethers obviously stay intact.

[youngoldy]

Lucky driver thats all I can say. The amount his head moves when he hit the back of that other car, and then ploughed into the tyres. Just shows how strong the chassis frames are nowerdays, and the marshals didn't seem to quick to move to go to his help. But again, lucky driver. I've not seen many FF crashes, but that's perhaps the worst I've seen.

[ghinzani]

Slightly OT Geva, but Gavin Wills used to have an ex-Van Uitert RF86 Van Diemen until that girl racer Emily Newman drove through the engine bay section at Oulton in 87. The frontal remains used to sit in his garden with plants trailing round it. I always thought it made a lovely flower box myself. Whatever you say the tube construction was VERY strong, it held up well in that crash for sure.