V8 Supercar Racing in WA doomed?? (merged x1)

[peckstar]

wont miss waneroo one bit, what a crap sandblown out in the boon docks track

is this really the best the WA motosport boffins can come up with. shame WA motosrport fans shame

[davester]

Yes, a street race does great things for permanent circuits...

Oh hang on a tick.

Mallala doesn't benefit from the Clipsal 500.
Ipswich doesn't benefit from Indy.
and Calder/Winton/PI have never benefitted from Albert Park.

The main beneficiaries from Street Events are SEL (commercial rights holders of V8 Supercars), Travel and Hotels, Food and Beverage.

I'm sure grass roots motorsport benefits somehow...as many of you continue to push, but not to the extent you may think. Most sponsors of support category entrants would be there if all V8SC events were at permanent circuits.

And since when were Perth attendances dwindling significantly?

The only way street events will benefit grass roots motorsport is when CAMS take the step of promoting them, profiting from them, and then distributing these profits to permanent circuits...which is not a current charter of the organisation.

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by deeks6

Much as I dislike Mr Cochrane, he is on the money (excuse pun) with this - watch what it does for Townsville and NZ. All sports must compete against each other these days and the bigger the event, the more attractive it is for the sponsors to get involved with the brand.

Exactly right. Look at Hamilton. Half a dozen platform sponsors spending around half a million each on a package, plus naming rights yet to be announced. At least three of the platform sponsors have moved mountains to be there because they see the value.

Pukekohe struggled to get a six-figure naming rights sponsor....Hamilton is seemingly fending them off.

Tell me which you would prefer...and park your personal agendas/vendettas when you do please!!

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by peckstar

wont miss waneroo one bit, what a crap sandblown out in the boon docks track

is this really the best the WA motosport boffins can come up with. shame WA motosrport fans shame

absolutely, peck ... and we forgot hard to get to, hard to get from, hot, dusty, can't have a pssss, can't get a drink or a feed, blah blah blah.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by deeks6

Tell me, what major (or any) "events" does WA have now? Clipsal is a HUGE event - I've done the corporate and the "punter" style and both are brilliant. When I go, I stay for a week and spend money on accomodation, food, merchandise, grog and then I go to Barossa and load up the boot (plus a stop off at Coonawarra on the way back. If it was WA, I'd do the same thing (i.e Margaret River). Tourists are $$$

It's a pity that the forest is obscured by all those trees!

WA has the Red Bull Air Race. For those who say that's not motor racing, the guys with the money disagree.

The forrest analogy is quite ironic with the WA government's sabotage of Rally Australia.

For a return of investment on a Perth Street Race, the WA government is comparing against Clipsal, but also Rally Oz, the Air Race, the Canberra Street Race, Race of a Thousand Years, and the Indy. Some work, some do not, some become money pits that achieve nothing.

Compare the infrastructure costs of a Perth Street Race to the Red Bull Air Race and I think you'd find that the realtive costs of V8 Supercars in that sort of comparison would become laughable.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

Exactly right. Look at Hamilton. Half a dozen platform sponsors spending around half a million each on a package, plus naming rights yet to be announced. At least three of the platform sponsors have moved mountains to be there because they see the value.

Pukekohe struggled to get a six-figure naming rights sponsor....Hamilton is seemingly fending them off.

Tell me which you would prefer...and park your personal agendas/vendettas when you do please!!

Yes but none of that Hamilton money will go to New Zealand motorsport though will it? A street race makes better value for a promotor sure, but is that really the point of this thread?

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

For a return of investment on a Perth Street Race, the WA government is comparing against Clipsal, but also Rally Oz, the Air Race, the Canberra Street Race, Race of a Thousand Years, and the Indy. Some work, some do not, some become money pits that achieve nothing.

Compare the infrastructure costs of a Perth Street Race to the Red Bull Air Race and I think you'd find that the realtive costs of V8 Supercars in that sort of comparison would become laughable.

I'm not sure how they are going to compare anything to those events until they actually TRY staging a similar event. You'll never know if you don't have a go as they say in the classics.

Secondly, I doubt whether the Air Race can be compared to Clipsal (for example) on the same scale. So the cost comparison also does not count. The more you put in, the more you take out as they say in the classics.

Thirdly, I suspect that the reality of this situation is that the WA Government don't really give a rats arse about events, sport or tourism because the money keeps rolling in from the mines. It certainly seems to be the case anyway. I think the Americas Cup experience cut them up (because Australia was out early and everybody went home) but, again, this would be a poor event to use as a precedent because of the elimination nature of that event (i.e Australia out = event over for most spectators).

[NewsStalker]

If the V8's believe in street races so much, why is it they have to say that the various governments should pay for them?

If they believe the event is such a good thing, then maybe it is about time that the ORGANISER (ie the V8's themselves) started to put up the money to set up and run these events.

Or is it that they realise they aren't the cash cows they try telling everyone they are?

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

If the V8's believe in street races so much, why is it they have to say that the various governments should pay for them?

If they believe the event is such a good thing, then maybe it is about time that the ORGANISER (ie the V8's themselves) started to put up the money to set up and run these events.

Or is it that they realise they aren't the cash cows they try telling everyone they are?

You are still not seeing the BIG picture. The organiser is not getting the benefits of the influx of money to the city/state so they rightfully ask for the costs of the event to be covered by the government (because they will be the beneficiaries in the end).

It works like this in terms of return:

Lets say a major event "The (Insert naming rights) Perth 500" attracts an influx of 100,000 people for 3-4 days. You can safely assume (with corporates etc) that the average spend of these people will be at least $2000 so there is $20 Million being generated in this time period (I suspect a lot more but this will do for the purpose of the exercise). So the government stand to (eventually) collect X % (say 35) in taxes/GST or approximately $7 million.

Therefore if the event costs less than $7 million to stage, it is worthwhile (break even). In fact it is even less because of that 7 mill, another 30% will come back from taxes from the jobs generated.

Problem is with the WA government (and a lot of motor sport fans) is short-term, small town, small picture thinking. Other states like NSW have wised up to the major event strategy employed by Victoria ... WA has not.

I like the old days too but tradition won't pay any bills in a market where other sports are only too willing to jump in and take sponsors and spectators. Check out the new "Revolution" track cycling promotions - brilliant. V8SC have actually had a bit of foresight and planned their brand strategy.

Now I (like I suspect most on this forum) like to spend the majority of my entertainment cash on motor sport. Luckily enough, I can attend a fair swag of Victorian meets for relatively low cost and this allows me to have a couple of trips to other states. But if I'm going to part with a large chunk of hard-earned, I want a bit of value and experience NOT a Mickey Mouse slot car track in the middle of the desert. If you think Wanneroo or Oran Park or QR will EVER compare to Clipsal or Bathurst, you are on another planet.

Keep in mind that for anyone outside of WA, it costs us more to get there than anywhere else (I can even go to NZ cheaper). Wanneroo? Don't make me laugh.

However, I WILL go to Townsville and I reckon it will be awesome. I'll also try to plan for the NZ round too, ditto. They are welcome to my money because they are trying harder to please me.

Wake up WA.

[Nivola]

deeks and it cost us West australia a bucket load just to do a national series that does not even come here.

As far as im am concerned it pains me the mentality of a high percentage of east coast racers. We have to go there but u wont even think about coming here for one meeting.

3 national champions this year is amazing for the budget needed to be found.

[deeks6]

Mate, I'm not anti-WA, quite the opposite ... I love the place ... used to be there every month on business.

But here's the deal - I can go to Wanneroo or I can go to Bathurst or Clipsal with money left over. Not really an argument, is it?

Give me a street race and I'll be there - and I'll buy you a drink.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by deeks6

Give me a street race and I'll be there - and I'll buy you a drink.

Might have missed this in earlier posts, but why will you pay the money to attend a perth street race versus Wanneroo.

Originally Posted by deeks6

Lets say a major event "The (Insert naming rights) Perth 500" attracts an influx of 100,000 people for 3-4 days. You can safely assume (with corporates etc) that the average spend of these people will be at least $2000 so there is $20 Million being generated in this time period (I suspect a lot more but this will do for the purpose of the exercise). So the government stand to (eventually) collect X % (say 35) in taxes/GST or approximately $7 million.

Therefore if the event costs less than $7 million to stage, it is worthwhile (break even). In fact it is even less because of that 7 mill, another 30% will come back from taxes from the jobs generated.

You need to factor in all the locals that attend, as they arent included in economic impacts, the revenue leakages that dont flow back to Perth, the people who leave the area for the weekend because of the race and also how many jobs are going to be created for a once a year 3 day event ?

[NewsStalker]

I am definately seeing the big picture.

And if I attend a race meeting - any race meeting - I want to be able to see more than just the 100 or so metres of track that I have to mortgage the house for in order to purchase a seat - because at events such as Clipsal, Indy, Albert Park and, to be honest, even Bathurst - that is all you get for your dollar.

Street circuits are NOT spectator events - they are TV events - and that is the difference and reality between them and permanent circuits.

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by deeks6

Therefore if the event costs less than $7 million to stage, it is worthwhile (break even). In fact it is even less because of that 7 mill, another 30% will come back from taxes from the jobs generated.

Just what planet was this figure pulled from? Start readcing some of the auditor reports that have been publically released and you will see this figure is nowhere near the true cost.

Why does Victoria claim it is now LOSING $30+ million annually staging the F1 race? Must be doing something majorly wrong if they should only be spending $7 million on a street race (regardless of whether it is for F1, V8's or F/Vees...

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

WA has the Red Bull Air Race. For those who say that's not motor racing, the guys with the money disagree.

The forrest analogy is quite ironic with the WA government's sabotage of Rally Australia.

For a return of investment on a Perth Street Race, the WA government is comparing against Clipsal, but also Rally Oz, the Air Race, the Canberra Street Race, Race of a Thousand Years, and the Indy. Some work, some do not, some become money pits that achieve nothing.

Compare the infrastructure costs of a Perth Street Race to the Red Bull Air Race and I think you'd find that the realtive costs of V8 Supercars in that sort of comparison would become laughable.

Interesting viewpoint Falc, but can I suggest
1. the event ran its natural course, what nearly 20 years, and lost its value to WA - it had saturated its market from an advertising & promotion point of view. It was never covered extensively on the East Coast of Australia.

2. I reject your suggestion that in terms of return on investment it is being compared with events that promote eastern Australia. Your point of view appears also to held by VESA, who sought to compare it with the WRC.

3. The air race is clearly aimed at international exposure not the east coast of Australia. (I am not sure how you compare the cost of the air race versus the V8s.

4. Your suggestion the WA government 'sabotaged' the WRC - how do you work that out - was it not the attempt of Ron Walker & his bandidos from Victoria to steal the event who forced a reappraisal of what the event did for WA? It had run its course.

The agenda in WA should not be assumed to be that of other states. Note: the State Government has judged committed taxpayers money to a multi use football ground.

[Nivola]

cavvy you forgot to say "Over Priced" Footy ground!!!!

[dsg]

Originally Posted by deeks6

But here's the deal - I can go to Wanneroo or I can go to Bathurst or Clipsal with money left over. Not really an argument, is it?

I understand what deeks is saying. I can go to Bahrain and have a return holiday through Asia for the price of a trip to the eastern states.

I don't think it is a small town mentality just the WA government does not see the value/return of a street race. WA is not really struggling to get money into the local economy at the moment.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by deeks6

I'm not sure how they are going to compare anything to those events until they actually TRY staging a similar event. You'll never know if you don't have a go as they say in the classics.

Secondly, I doubt whether the Air Race can be compared to Clipsal (for example) on the same scale. So the cost comparison also does not count. The more you put in, the more you take out as they say in the classics.

Thirdly, I suspect that the reality of this situation is that the WA Government don't really give a rats arse about events, sport or tourism because the money keeps rolling in from the mines. It certainly seems to be the case anyway. I think the Americas Cup experience cut them up (because Australia was out early and everybody went home) but, again, this would be a poor event to use as a precedent because of the elimination nature of that event (i.e Australia out = event over for most spectators).

Firstly: They have, it was called Rally Australia.
Secondly: I'm sure the WA government compares them, and that was my point.
Thirdly: What happened in the 1980's is a generation removed from the current crop of politicians so I doubt the America's Cup is that relevant.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Interesting viewpoint Falc, but can I suggest
1. the event ran its natural course, what nearly 20 years, and lost its value to WA - it had saturated its market from an advertising & promotion point of view. It was never covered extensively on the East Coast of Australia.

2. I reject your suggestion that in terms of return on investment it is being compared with events that promote eastern Australia. Your point of view appears also to held by VESA, who sought to compare it with the WRC.

3. The air race is clearly aimed at international exposure not the east coast of Australia. (I am not sure how you compare the cost of the air race versus the V8s.

4. Your suggestion the WA government 'sabotaged' the WRC - how do you work that out - was it not the attempt of Ron Walker & his bandidos from Victoria to steal the event who forced a reappraisal of what the event did for WA? It had run its course.

The agenda in WA should not be assumed to be that of other states. Note: the State Government has judged committed taxpayers money to a multi use football ground.

1. Yes, certainly true.
2. Infrastructure costs are infrastructure costs. The dollars to build an event do not respect who comes to watch.
3. Yes it is, but that does not mean it does not have any domestic pull. Points in favour of the Air Race, it can pull International and East Coast. I compare the costs because at government level I am sure they do not care which sport they choose to promote.
4. Rally Oz was moved away from Langley Park to a smaller, less accessable venue, tried to get out of the contract a year early, then according to rumour was informing other states it was a bad idea to take it up.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by deeks6

I think the Americas Cup experience cut them up (because Australia was out early and everybody went home) but, again, this would be a poor event to use as a precedent because of the elimination nature of that event (i.e Australia out = event over for most spectators).

[Off Topic]Australia was defending the Cup, so it was still in the event at the very end after all the challengers knocked each other out. No one left early and as a tourism event the cup was a generally recognised as success. Don't know what event you are thinking about

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Just what planet was this figure pulled from? Start readcing some of the auditor reports that have been publically released and you will see this figure is nowhere near the true cost.

Why does Victoria claim it is now LOSING $30+ million annually staging the F1 race? Must be doing something majorly wrong if they should only be spending $7 million on a street race (regardless of whether it is for F1, V8's or F/Vees...

"...for the purpose of the exercise ..." was how I put it, I believe. It is to explain how they would make their decision (i.e the principle). But I'm not sure if it will keep people from missing my point.

I'm also not sure what yours is but if you think the WA government are going to invest in permanent tracks or motor racing at all (not just V8SC), you are dreaming. I'm wondering why you would not want to grow the overall sector (motor racing) by showcasing its premier brand (V8SC) in a major event.

Perhaps the problem is that there is divided opinion in WA (amongst fans, organisers, promotors?) so no proper lobbying ever reaches the Govt.

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by dsg

I understand what deeks is saying. I can go to Bahrain and have a return holiday through Asia for the price of a trip to the eastern states.

I don't think it is a small town mentality just the WA government does not see the value/return of a street race. WA is not really struggling to get money into the local economy at the moment.

Thats exactly what I originally said (that the WA government don't give a rats) but it is still small town thinking not to take advantage of economically good times (i.e. mining).

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by deeks6

I'm wondering why you would not want to grow the overall sector (motor racing) by showcasing its premier brand (V8SC) in a major event.

You have yet to prove how such an event will grow overall motor racing ?

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by deeks6

Thats exactly what I originally said (that the WA government don't give a rats) but it is still small town thinking not to take advantage of economically good times (i.e. mining).

deeks, you are applying east coast thinking.

As an expat Sandgroper who goes back regularly, can I tell you WA runs 'to the beat of a different drum', & examples are the Americas Cup, the World Rally Championship & the Red Bull Air Race, none of which have been replicated in any other state.

The WA government has supported the WASCC for a long time. Would the WASCC benefit if a street event were held ? Would that influence thinking?

What is in it for WA?

What is in it for WA motor sport - Messrs Johnson, Ricciardello & Tander will all run the #1 plate on their cars next year.

They ran the WRC for close to 20 years and it was all but ignored in Melbourne (where I live), yet it made no difference, because the WA government has a different agenda to the one you insist on.

Well done to the WA Govt for having an independent thought process.

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by deeks6

I'm also not sure what yours is but if you think the WA government are going to invest in permanent tracks or motor racing at all (not just V8SC), you are dreaming. I'm wondering why you would not want to grow the overall sector (motor racing) by showcasing its premier brand (V8SC) in a major event.

Perhaps the problem is that there is divided opinion in WA (amongst fans, organisers, promotors?) so no proper lobbying ever reaches the Govt.

This just goes to show how out of touch you are with politics and motor sport in WA.

The WA govt DOES invest in motor sport in WA - rin g the WASCC and ask about grants provided to the track over recent years. Or - if you are bothered - try getting hold of their club magazine which has detailed this on numerous occasions.

Why wouldn't someone want to showcase the 'premier' brand of motor racing? Quite simple really - because it isn't going to do anything for the organiser other than to cause them to have to invest stacks of money with very little return and basically nothig to show for it.

Adelaide IS the exception - but you seem to forget one thing about the Clipsal event - it carried on from an already established meeting - the AGP. This question will never be able to be answered but ask yourself, and others, this - would Clipsal have even been started IF if had to be organised, initially, from absolutely nothing - no prior event, no established infrastructure etc. I seriously doubt it.