HSCC launches Historic Modsports and Saloons

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Not entirely certain but a Mk 2 group 2 Capri may well fit with triple webers since that was an "X pack" option for the road car in the late 70s. Hmmm I believe I have a spare Capri somewhere.

Good idea. Capri X-Pack was first introduced on the Mk2 as you say, you could have it complete (camshaft included) or in bits through the dealer network. May be the wings extensions are allowed too? One issue, I think the particular airbox is almost impossible to source.

[mab01UK]

"A period reverse flow (non cross-flow) cylinder head must not be replaced with a cross-flow cylinder head, unless there is evidence that this was actually replaced in period on the car."


Following discussions with the scrutineers, it has been confirmed the BMC 8-port cast iron head is eligible for the Mini, as per the original homologation form, although they are allowing valve sizes to be free to comply with the rest of the regulations. This doesn’t mean the head can be used on any other make of car using the Mini engine, unless that particular ‘manufacturer’ also homologated it. So it’s for the Mini only and also, aluminium versions of the head will not be eligible. However I believe this is a head that cannot be purchased new in cast iron...

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Just to get things in perspective, the engine that I used was a crossflow headed 1500cc 5 bearing screamer that was allowed when I was contesting the ICS series and it cost me and my sponsors a serious amount of money at the time (although most of the cost was for reliabillity) They allowed it after it was realized that it wouldn't be competitive against a large engined Mini. There wasn't (at the time) a minimum weight limit and we managed to get the Anglia down to 680 kilos wheras a Mini could be 500 kilos or less and depending on how the rules were interpretated especially in the "grey areas" ! Power outputs at the time for mine depending on what spec cam and carbs I was running at different tracks was up to 180 BHP and the Minis A series 150 plus ?.
A 1200 cc Anglia unfortunately isn't competitive against a well sorted Mini as long as the drivers are as good as one another and both cars comply to the rules in the series, simply because of the weight difference and the Minis amazing handling from standard

I drove the Broadspeed Anglia at Brands a few years ago, before it was restored, it had a similar x flow engine to Gordons in it. First impresions were it was a bit flat, then it got to 5500 RPM and we were off like a scalded cat. I didn't push it as I knew what it was, but it was fun!

the weight issue is key . . . a lot of the screamers make power, but not much torque, so lowest car weight is key to performance. something I learnt was to tune to the car rather than the pub audience sacrificing 4-5 BH in the Cortina, and a borader sporead of 120 lb/ft, and saving 30kg in weight bought be time everywhere I went. 0.5s @ Brands

[Mike Harte]

Looking again at Peter's post above and if I have understood it properly, it would appear that a twin cam engine, as fitted to the Lotus Cortina, would not permitted in an Anglia because the heads were aluminium. That is a shame because many very swift Anglias in the late 60s and into the 70s ran with the twinkies in Special Saloons.

I think one of the very earliest was installed in Roger Taylor's car in about 1967 which was no surprise as the car was created and run out of Ford's competition base at Boreham under the supervision of Bert Avard.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I think one of the very earliest was installed in Roger Taylor's car in about 1967 which was no surprise as the car was created and run out of Ford's competition base at Boreham under the supervision of Bert Avard.

Quite a bit earlier than that, Mike. We were fitting a twincam in an Anglia in early 1966 and we were aware of many others around at that time. There were several in the north in 1965 - Pete Finney and some of the Perdal cars.
I think the Alan Peer and Roger Taylor cars were around in 1965 too. I'm not sure if Chris Craft's Anglia had a twin cam.



I remember we had to do a lot of work changing the position of the brake and clutch master cylinders as they got in the way of the carbs.

[Mike Harte]

Peter, you may be right about the dates, but Roger's was the first one that I can recall but I was based in the South. However, I only started in '66 and he was racing a pushrod at that time. I do clearly remember when I first saw his twin-cam and being bowled over by the installation of it, certainly in comparison to mine which was done on even less than a shoe-string.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Quite a bit earlier than that, Mike. We were fitting a twincam in an Anglia in early 1966 and we were aware of many others around at that time. There were several in the north in 1965 - Pete Finney and some of the Perdal cars.
I think the Alan Peer and Roger Taylor cars were around in 1965 too. I'm not sure if Chris Craft's Anglia had a twin cam.



I remember we had to do a lot of work changing the position of the brake and clutch master cylinders as they got in the way of the carbs.

Pete, I had several road Anglia's in the sixties with Twinks in them, I even had one in my Anglia Van that I towed my race car to the meetings with.
The brake and clutch master cylinders didn't need to be moved as we fitted Imp cylinders that didn't have a reservoir and cleared the carbs and fitted a remote one on the bulkhead.

[S griffin]

You obviously knew what you were doing if you had Twinks in your Anglias, as well as enough money to run them. No wonder you had quite a bit of success Gordon!

[Moby]

Twin cams are permitted as the head is ‘original material’, it’s only when you want to replace a cast iron head with an ally head that’s not permitted. So a twin cam would be eligible, in an Elan, Europa, Cortina Mk1 or Mk2 or an Escort. Seeing as you can change the block for a 711m block (same family), I would think an Escort twin cam would be very competitive with wide slicks.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Moby

Twin cams are permitted as the head is ‘original material’, it’s only when you want to replace a cast iron head with an ally head that’s not permitted. So a twin cam would be eligible, in an Elan, Europa, Cortina Mk1 or Mk2 or an Escort. Seeing as you can change the block for a 711m block (same family), I would think an Escort twin cam would be very competitive with wide slicks.

I was referring specifically to Anglias running with them, not to other Ford/Lotus models.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by S griffin

You obviously knew what you were doing if you had Twinks in your Anglias, as well as enough money to run them. No wonder you had quite a bit of success Gordon!

I remember I broke a lotus Cortina that only wanted a front wing and a door and scrapped the rest ! I flogged the engine to George Polley for £200 that he put in an Escort for Rally use. I often look back to how much money I threw away ! However it was a different era back then and I also remember a mate had a 3.8 E type that he sold for £500 in good condition but wanted a clutch

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Pete, I had several road Anglia's in the sixties with Twinks in them, I even had one in my Anglia Van that I towed my race car to the meetings with.
The brake and clutch master cylinders didn't need to be moved as we fitted Imp cylinders that didn't have a reservoir and cleared the carbs and fitted a remote one on the bulkhead.

Our answer was to cut the firewall back a few inches and angle the master cylinders up a little for clearance. It didn't alter the feel of the pedals as
far as I remember.

[Moby]

Hi all, following the pilot races and a year of discussion the reg's have now been updated and finalised. We have reverted to the original concept of Special Saloons rather than Modified Saloons to sit alongside Modsports. Lots of interest coming in. Please see link to the full reg's attached below.

https://hscc.org.uk/wp-content/uploa...gs_2023-V2.pdf

[morninggents]

Looks like twin cam Anglias are now allowed.


Sod it ...... I sold a 2 litre twin cam only 2 years ago.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Looks like twin cam Anglias are now allowed.


Sod it ...... I sold a 2 litre twin cam only 2 years ago.

Ah no what a shocker!!!

[Mike Harte]

I'm somewhat perplexed why the regs refer to the 1979 tech manual, as Special Saloons were about during the sixties and into the early 70s. So I don't know whether that means that the cars can have space frames or not, and whether they could use fibreglass bonnets and boots?

I cannot recall any Special Saloons in my days that had space frames, but many of us, me included, used fibreglass boots and bonnets, and some also had light weight doors and roofs as well.

[GORDON STREETER]

If anyone wants a race winning Anglia I know where there is one!

[GCCheddaris]

From the mid seventies Special Saloons and especially Super Saloons gave way to some weird and wonderful creations. Some were built from scratch such as the wonderful but short lived Big Bertha Vauxhall Ventora and it's replacement Baby Bertha while others such as Colin Hawker's de Cadenet based VW and Jonathan Buncombe's Chevron Imp (Chimp) were based on sports racing cars. Were the 'Bertha' Vauxhalls not spaceframes ?

I noted in the regs that the classes seem to be biased towards Special Saloons. Up to 1150cc Saloons have their own class while 1500cc Saloons are in with up to 1150cc Modsports. Surely it should be other way round, Special Saloons being more highly modified should be moved up a class in comparison to their less modified Modsports brethren ?

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'm somewhat perplexed why the regs refer to the 1979 tech manual, as Special Saloons were about during the sixties and into the early 70s. So I don't know whether that means that the cars can have space frames or not, and whether they could use fibreglass bonnets and boots?

I cannot recall any Special Saloons in my days that had space frames, but many of us, me included, used fibreglass boots and bonnets, and some also had light weight doors and roofs as well.

Mike, my Anglia isn't space framed but has lightweight doors/bonnet/boot. The suspension is conventional Anglia type but quite "trick" within the rules. We also made sure that it had the best brakes that we could get inside the 13inch wheels. It handled like a dream and only had a pushrod Kent engine in it, but it did cost a lot of money to develop it so that it would pull up to 10k for long spells, especially at tracks like Spa.

[GCCheddaris]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'm somewhat perplexed why the regs refer to the 1979 tech manual, as Special Saloons were about during the sixties and into the early 70s. So I don't know whether that means that the cars can have space frames or not, and whether they could use fibreglass bonnets and boots?

I cannot recall any Special Saloons in my days that had space frames, but many of us, me included, used fibreglass boots and bonnets, and some also had light weight doors and roofs as well.

The series is aimed at Pre 1980 Special Saloons and Modsports hence the use of the 1979 regulations. The first spaceframe Maguire Imp was built in 1979 and of course there was the lowline Escort built by Geoff Wood which featured on this forum a few years ago which I believe was also a spaceframe.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by GCCheddaris

The series is aimed at Pre 1980 Special Saloons and Modsports hence the use of the 1979 regulations. The first spaceframe Maguire Imp was built in 1979 and of course there was the lowline Escort built by Geoff Wood which featured on this forum a few years ago which I believe was also a spaceframe.

I may be horribly wrong here, but my memory is that around about 1974 is the period that the Super Saloons started, when the more exotic machinery that you quote took over from Special Saloons. Which is why I don't understand why this club are saying Special Saloons based on 1979 regulations. Special Saloons no longer, in reality, existed as such.

More to the point though, we have discussed on these pages about the surfeit of racing for specific classes of cars, and how that is diluting grids dramatically as drivers/entrants weigh up which events that they can afford to do or want to be on the grid.

There is already another club, the CSCC, that run a series of races for both classes of cars in combined races. Surely all this new series will do do is just split the grids, with neither club being beneficiaries. It would seem that many of these cars are pretty expensive and time consuming to get on track, and not all of them are able to make it to every meeting that they run on, and I think that both clubs will quickly find the numbers diminishing quickly. Assuming, of course, that these owners do actually join the HSCC series.

[MGDavid]

CSCC allow much later cars, IIRC there are some from the 90's in it. The genuine older cars from the 60s and 70s cannot be competitive therefore they are few and far between. Hence AIUI HSCC biasing their rules to 60s and 70s only. Not competing for the same customer base but both clubs attempting to provide somewhere to race for a lot of cars that are languishing in people's garages and workshops.

[coppice]

That is reassuring . I am often frustrated that despite the UK having lots of circuits and people to race on them , too many clubs are fishing in the same pond. |Co-operation, rather than competition must be the way forward .

[GCCheddaris]

When I started going motor racing in 1974, just about every meeting featured a Special Saloon race, with either a full grid or two races split at 1000cc containing literally dozens of Minis and Imps.



I would love to see these little cars emerging from hibernation to form the core of the new series but I wonder how many still exist. Autograss was becoming very popular in the seventies and I suspect many of them ended up being used on the grass tracks or being broken to supply the basis of Autograss cars. An old Formula Ford I owned ended it's days in that way.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by GCCheddaris

The series is aimed at Pre 1980 Special Saloons and Modsports hence the use of the 1979 regulations. The first spaceframe Maguire Imp was built in 1979 and of course there was the lowline Escort built by Geoff Wood which featured on this forum a few years ago which I believe was also a spaceframe.

But there were many sports racing car based Skodas around since 1975 if I remember correctly. Also a few John Robinson space frame Escorts from about the same time. Also, the fantastic Super Saloon cars were emerging at that time.