Rallycross 2010 post-mortem

[dougcross70's]

As a old greying Rallycross nut from the very start, spending many wet Saturday afternoons spectating at Crofts ITV World of Sport events I now find my self asking is Rallycross Uk going into yet another of its Lydden Hill death throws, where sadly that is the only venue operating.
This seems to happen with the sport every few years after its just past through a high up on the rise moment, ie after TV left in the seventies and a little bit after the metro/rs200's supercars left in eighties.
I see two championships, too many classes, too few circuits leading to reduced grids and in this time of not much cash about as a rallycross nut it does worry me a lot that the sport might be about to take a dive again.
I see XR4 buggy racing and the new spectacular Suzuki Swift one make series thinning pukka rallycross competitors out even more.
Perhaps many of you will lay into me for my comments, I am a total rallycross nut and would love to hear all the rallycross gang feedback

[chunder]

I think looking at your history you are spot on in many ways.

We keep being told by the people involved that it's progress and good having two series.

But I have always called into question the reasoning behind this, and now it seems even more idiotic to have two series running at these difficult times.

I can only report what my friends have said when watching it on telly. And that is, "why are there only two cars in this race?" "Why is it so dusty!!" "Why is a triumph Spitfire racing against an Astra"

You can't expect to promote a series when people don't understand what's going on who are new.

There isn't a lot of money about, so you can't expect people to buy ERC spec cars. But the basic modified rules have totally prevented a 1600 or 1.4 car from being competitive, meaning it's now a two class game where it used to be three or four.

I know you cant make everyone happy, but we had a glut of decent cars in the 70's to the 90's, and now we dont. it's that simple.

Amalgamate the series, get rid of the people who seek to gain rather than promote and let's try and move forward.

[dougcross70's]

Nice to see another rallycross fan thinks along similar lines, as you say tough times are up on us so lets pray Rallycross does not dive into another death zone.
On the new rallycross tracks and noise problems, its a crying shame modern uk racing circuits cannot show some interest in Rallycross because with current noise regulations being what they are I would think it a no goer for most new non motor sport venue's to start a new track, planners & locals will hammer nails into the venture.
Closing on the noise angle, I reside not far from Croft circuit in Northern UK which is now under strict noise control & believe me from my back garden the Motor Bike meetings far outweigh the noise problem than Rallycross & bog standard car meetings, they produce sounds like a permanent bee swarm all day long, that's no bother to me, but it is to many more.

[chasing cars]

Hard to disagree on any of the points but without being controversial I now only really see one competitive championship with the btrda running along side it.
I would love to see the BRC go with euro div1 & 1a classes plus a non euro regs class for 4wd & 2wd & the btrda running its classes plus the suzukis as it is now. Im not a fan of the RX150 but thats not to say they dont have a place. I know div 1a would be a little thin on the ground to start with but super modifieds are in serious decline & have been in the BRC ever since the Lotus came along.

Maybe it would take a couple of years but if it was made clear that new regs would come in for say 2012 this would give plenty of time for drivers to build or buy cars that fit the new regs & not spend 60 grand plus on building a car for a dieing class. This is just my opinion & i doubt will ever happen but i do feel a long term direction is needed.

As far as other tracks are concerned we sure need more but as has been discussed in previous threads not so easy, it would be great to get back to Croft, and see Blyton developed into a top circuit.

[chunder]

The Lotus was only really brought into rallycross to compete with the Evans Nissan Micra

That car uttetly destroyed modified racing in the UK, was brillant but moved the whole deal onto0 a new, more expensive level.

Guys like Bellerby were uhaving to use BTCC tuned engines almost to compete with it and you only have to remmebr the 80 gran price tag of it when it was sold to see how most Escort or otehr cars were never going to compete.

you might say progress, I say regress.

[dougcross70's]

Thanks for the reply, glad for the feedback.
I'm not expecting every competitor turns out in shiny Div 1 European Class Super Car gear with bank manger riding shotgun, the new guys have to start somewhere, but the sport has to watch it doesn't spread itself too thinly & sink itself thus having to start from scratch yet again.
Also how can we keep the new kids on the Rallycross block interested because when they get the talent sadly they drift off into other forms of four wheel sport, possibly not doing as good in that aspect either.
Perhaps some X new Rallycross kids on the block could add their bit to the forum as to why they packed Rallycross in.

[1975DCS]

I think the only way to keep the price tag down is to keep the cars body and chassis as close as possible to standard. No special body panels, just steel or alu as original. Keep the weightlimit a bit high. Maximize the wheels, brakes and turbo to be used (std Garrett for ex).

Compare it to the old Gp A8 and old WRC class: both modified and expensive, but the WRC is to over the top. And keeping it standard doesn't mean it have to be slow: a cheap Impreza can easily run over 300 bhp, so a bit like Gp A8 engine with Gp N4 spec chassis = clubman spec!

[chunder]

Get rid of launch control, ALS and quick shift gearboxes, this would also help a huge amount with noise

Ban car to pit radio, this is utterly unnecessary!!

And let them use slick tyres, they can cut them and that measn the tracks can also use less abrasive shale and less tarmac, it cuts up too much with these tyres.

[WJM]

Division 1 is not the problem of the British Championship. If you honestly look at it, it's better than ever in my opinion. At what other point in time did you have such variety in topspec machinery on your shores? Maybe the late-eighties but else?

The real problem is the other classes which only have 10-12 cars max, with huge differences between the drivers. There is also too much focus on one-make racing.

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by WJM

Division 1 is not the problem of the British Championship.

Yes, I know... I only found this the easiest example of comparising 2 classes that appaer to look the same (4wd, turbo, 34mm), but resulting in a slight advantage in terms of speed but a huge increase of costst...

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by chunder

Get rid of launch control, ALS and quick shift gearboxes, this would also help a huge amount with noise

Ban car to pit radio, this is utterly unnecessary!!

Yep, that will save big bucks...

[AndyS]

I agree entirely with the points made by Chasing Cars and Dougcross, particularly about the class structures. But this debate has probably been done to death on here in the past. People need to speak up as thats the only way things get changed, if nobody says anything nothing will change. The only way I see it moving forward is if the sport is run by an independent organisation with no ties to any of the existing championships, circuits etc, but I reckon there's more chance of seeing Elvis out in an RX150 at Blyton this weekend! Failing that all the various organisations need to agree to work together. Unfortunatley this seems unlikely. Sad but true.

[StockHatch782]

Originally Posted by AndyS

People need to speak up as thats the only way things get changed, if nobody says anything nothing will change.

I couldn't agree more – if you have an opinion, let the relevant people have your feedback. I don't think people have the right to complain that their voices aren't being heard when they haven't actually spoken. You may not get your way, especially if you're in a minority, but if you don't try you'll never know.

Originally Posted by AndyS

I reckon there's more chance of seeing Elvis out in an RX150 at Blyton this weekend!

He's in buggy number 13 (it's his lucky number) on the entry list I've seen...

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by StockHatch782

He's in buggy number 13 (it's his lucky number) on the entry list I've seen...

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by AndyS

I agree entirely with the points made by Chasing Cars and Dougcross, particularly about the class structures.

Having re read the thread I should also say Chunder, WJM and 1975DCS comments as well. Everybody really.

[leonidas]

Realistically I don't think there's much you can do about the two championship situation. Its been debated so much but unless one of the organisers is impelled to make a change either by drivers or struggling entries I can't see much happening.

The Modifield issue is easier. One could move to Div1a rules or just take action to make it much cheaper by banning the more expensive modified bits, exotic GT cars etc.

There also needs to be a cheaper entry level formula for the main MSA series. I advocated a stock 4wd class on here a while ago. Swifts have been more successful than I thought they would be but they aren't cheap or desperately exciting. If it carries on it needs to develop into a cheaper 'modern stock hatch' concept. There just isn't the money around at the moment.

[chasing cars]

Originally Posted by leonidas

There also needs to be a cheaper entry level formula for the main MSA series. I advocated a stock 4wd class on here a while ago. Swifts have been more successful than I thought they would be but they ain't cheap or desperately exciting. If it carries on it needs to develop into a cheaper 'modern stock hatch' concept. There just isn't the money around at the moment.

Could not agree more, the stock hatch concept was a good one except it became dominated by a 25yr old car, surely something similar but only allowing more modern machinery would work though i wouldnt want it to become a saxo dominated championship either.

In France they have div 4 which is very popular & gets a good variety of well turned out fairly standard looking cars (of course they may not be as standard as they look), i dont know the regs or cost to compete in the class but its certainly less than div 1a and super modifieds.

[MESHGA]

Personally i think all new budding drivers look at the current classes and work out how much it would cost and look at the whole Rallycross scene in the uk and just go off to do something else as if your not either a die hard driver/fan or born into the sport you aint going to get a look in!
The way its going the only class that saved uk Rallycross like it or not will be lost for ever by the few big car drivers and their ideas.
I know we are all ment to go to meetings to see the super cars but i would of like to done a poll a few years back to ask what racing specs enjoyed the most !
I for 1 loved the challenge of making it to the A final out of around 50 cars just in stock hatch .
I know of a few drivers from super cars tried stock hatch and all failed bar Tony Bardy , the others just said we was all mad ! No we just had balls not big pockets!!!!!!
BRING BACK GOOD STANDARD CAR RACING (with a few mods) and no bs

[chunder]

The problem with that is that rallycross boomed with non standard car racing. Not one make and production based racing.

Even before the glory days of the late 80's early 90's the main reason it was popular was Mk2 Escorts and the like. The whole sport was desigend around rally cars running on a split gravel,tar track, not Stock Hatch!

And take a look at what classes are oversubscribed on the continent? Supernational, in various guises.

You have f and rwd cars that are fairly standard, so Saabs, Volvo's Opels etc, then the 2.4 class runing more power and better tyres, then the main class running super modified cars and mega tyres, engines etc. the classes that are unpopular are Div1, Div1A and the insanity that is Div2! Let's make a class for a car that NOONE ACTUALLY MAKES!! Dumbasses

The Swedes and Norwegians don't see the need to run one make series, and are quite happy allowing old cars to run in their series?

I don't advocate going back in time, but bad decisions were made a long time ago that destroyed the fabric of modified racing in UK rallycross.

The Nova Challenge was great coz it brought people in and the things crashed a lot! They lookd the part and were fast.

Sorry but Stock Hatch looked like rookie bangers most of the time and I can pay and watch blokes do that properly every Saturday night thanks!! And they wiouldnt get a penny of my hard earned coz I hate them!!

[dcdesign]

Problem with British modified, is the freedom of weight... how can you imagine a fair battle between a supercharged 1800 weighing 750kg, and a atmosferic 2.0 weighing 750kg.... and in such atmosphere, you end up with some guys with lightweight insane costly cars battling for the championship, ans some guys with cheaper cars for getting the entry a bit filled up...

Add a weight penalty to a number of capacity (with charging co-efficiënt), for instance this numbers (pilot and equipment included)

-1000cc 770kg RWD 720kg FWD
-1400cc 860kg RWD 810kg FWD
-1600cc 950kg RWD 900kg FWD
-2000cc 1030kg RWD 980kg FWD
-2500cc 1130kg RWD 1080kg FWD
-3000cc 1210kg RWD 1160kg FWD
-3500cc 1300kg RWD 1250kg FWD
-4000cc 1380kg RWD 1330kg FWD
+4000cc 1470kg RWD 1420kg FWD

And because of the high speed tracks in the British rallycross, you may add some extra advantage for FWD cars...

[AndyS]

Interesting debate, I like Chasing Cars suggestion for a class structure, it's fairly similar to the French regs in some respects. Leonidas is right about the need for an entry class, 4WD stock is another possibility but I prefer the French style Div4 if cost effective enough. Not a fan of one make classes but another one to consider is maybe the BMW Mini class proposed a couple of years ago. It seemed cheap as chips, there's a ready supply of the things and they are relevant to motoring today. Still prefer the other two suggestions but thought I'd mention it.

As to Chunder's comment on which class people enjoy the most, my vote would always go with Super National. The Scandinavians have that spot on and the action is superb. On the occasion there are big grids in the British Isles I've never been dispointed. I'm thinking Superprix pre '08 and the racing was pretty good in Nutts Corner recently if you saw it. Also quite impressed with the French Div 3. I think Chasing Cars class structure suggestion would incorporate both of these. I think the key for all classes is keeping them spectacular, the cars interesting looking but affordable at the same time.

[schanche]

The classes and Divisions is another topic that we could all put the organisers to rights on! But for me it all went wrong when the ERC Introduced the 1400 cup to be used as step up into the two main Divisions.
Personally I think it should revert back to Supercars Renamed from Div 1 more power alot more restrictions, circuits and saftey has vast Improved since those dark days after all the spectacle of supercars are the looks and the sheer power which I think is obviously lacking,Supernational/Supermodified whatever one the Organisers wish to choose but speciffacly rear wheel drive 2.0 engines! Turbo or Normal but resticted by wieght, tuners now days can extract all sorts of power and rear wheel is always entertaining just ask the Swedes and Norewegians.Each Country with its own championship should have these two main classes as standard allowing whoever to compete in the ERC events the Pinnacle of Rallycross,and then the feeder class if you like could be the one make championships like the Swifts Cup,Logan Cup,Fiesta Cup.Too many different classes countries running different rules has in my oppinion restricted Rallycross for two many years,take all the different options away have Two Main classes the feeder class. Car preparation now days and the skills people have picked up and the sheer proffesionalism of the drivers would provide each country hosting a round of the European series with a large entry of there own "nation" to compete with the regular competitors,and then the one make championships like the Swifts/Logans/Fiestas could be the support class at each ERC round showcasing each countries Feeder class or beginner if you like.

[jimmynova]

Originally Posted by leonidas

Realistically I don't think there's much you can do about the two championship situation. Its been debated so much but unless one of the organisers is impelled to make a change either by drivers or struggling entries I can't see much happening.

.

I heard a rumour that peter stott had a meeting with lhmc proposing amalgamating the 2 championships but peter stott wasn't interested. Don't know how true this is though! Anyone got any idea what is happening with the RXOC as it seems to be running out of venues to use and looks like it could be going down the pan.

I agree that a budget class that is regulated right needs to be sorted because i think alot of people want to try rallycross but don't believe they can be competitive in stock hatch because they see people coming in with relatively standard cars and they are left trailing at the back and then after a season seem to dissapear due to getting disheartened.

[MESHGA]

1 every body has to start some where ! I did 20 + years ago and i know of many like me who didnt get down hearted just found out how to get the best out of what you get and even if you got the best car you need track time to be up with the best!
I dont totally agree with some of you re mods or what ever as the best way to go !
Ok stock hatch maybe nearly dead but a new series but not costly for standard cars is needed , we need to not get to swept away with the current sucess as it could fall apart and remember sh sayed rallycross not so long ago

[chunder]

Dream world!! rallycross started as a modified sport and survived and prospered as a modified sport. I have no issue with SH, but to say it saved the sport is folly!

Since standard cars were introduced new people went into that instead of into better structured modified classes as they did before or have gone elsewhere.

Leading to a dearth of decenf secondhand modified cars! And becaise of this a totalluy messed up structure which forces them into stupid classes as organisers clamour for anyone to stay in rallycross!