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Old 10 Jul 2012, 19:30 (Ref:3104778)   #1
NMMotorsport
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Pulling my hair out - Saxo VTR non starter

Hey chaps

Really struggling here, my Saxo VTR has not been running for a good few months now. The technical info about the Saxo on the web is terrible. Basically I think I'm at the conclusion of a locked ecu, But need to know why its locked and can it be unlocked by a "diy"er?

So far:
coil pack changed
crank position sensor changed
fuel pump relay changed
mobile mechanic came out and checked various items, no power to coilpack or c.p.s and pointed toward ecu.
replaced ecu and imobiliser transponder unit etc
fuel ok
fuel pump ok
spark plugs new
all fuses checked
fuel filter changed
inertia switch linked out

So last thing is the locked ecu, really hope someone can help me with this and hope I've posted in the right place. A fellow racer really stuck. Any guidance is greatly accepted.
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Old 10 Jul 2012, 20:14 (Ref:3104806)   #2
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Sounds like the immobiliser is on.
Why the hell did you do all that ? you could have saved a load of cash by getting someone that knows what they are up to !
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Old 10 Jul 2012, 20:26 (Ref:3104816)   #3
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Thanks for your comment but not too helpful. The saxo has a light on the dash to indicate wether or not the immobiliser has been de activated. Which goes out when the key is turned.
As for hiring help thats why i got a mobile diagnostics guy out, plugged into port, no fault codes, checked around for supplies and he diagnosed it as ecu fault. All in all i have spent around £80 on parts and labour. But like said it leaves me at a dead end on technical advice.
I do appreciate any comments but please be constructive if you can, i do not believe in just changing things for the sake of it buy i am really struggling
Thanks in advance
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Old 10 Jul 2012, 20:38 (Ref:3104823)   #4
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Does the rev counter work when it's cranked over ? has the ecu been coded to the car ? Think back , had you done anything to the car before it refused to start initially , I mean anything like fitting a stereo ?
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Old 10 Jul 2012, 20:55 (Ref:3104831)   #5
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Hey gordon

Thanks for the reply again. Please dont mistake me for a typical saxo owner( if there is such a thing haha) i bought this car with the intention of building a trackday toy, so far so good.

The only significant thing was the cold weather. When we had bad snow at start of year. Battery went flat. Not started since. Before that the car ran great. Did its first trackday back end of last year. I held off for a long time on changing parts cos i dont like changing stuff for sake of it. But the technical stuff based on saxos is rubbish, web resources etc. Full of youths pimpin them up imo!

Rev counter does go up when cranked, no stereo in vehicle
Ecu is apparently only linked to immobiliser, not to individual car

Thanks again for reading bud
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Old 10 Jul 2012, 21:25 (Ref:3104851)   #6
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Mmm. you are really fighting in the dark without sticking a break out box on the ECU and running some tests.
Trailer it down to Southern Spain and I'll take a look, it'll probably start in the heat !
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Old 10 Jul 2012, 22:20 (Ref:3104874)   #7
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If it wasn't for the rev counter moving, I would have said crank sensor. I'm guessing that you haven't recently removed the stereo or dash binacle have you? If you have it may be that the cars' CAN data bus is open ended which could well cause the issue. The CAN bus needs to be terminaed with a 120ohm resistor across CAN High and CAN Low.

Just a thought.

Jason.
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 05:55 (Ref:3104940)   #8
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Thanks gordon. Would love to pop down to spain, really could do with a hol haha.

Morning jason
Can you enlighten me on the can data bus? Initially the car was untouched when it failed to start at first. The car is a year 2000 so not sure about it being obd compliant

Even if anyone can point me in direction to some good technical resources to work from would be great


Thanks guys
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 11:45 (Ref:3105049)   #9
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Originally Posted by NMMotorsport View Post
.......Even if anyone can point me in direction to some good technical resources to work from would be great

Thanks guys
google 'CAN data bus' throws up lots of interesting-looking websites for starters...
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 22:11 (Ref:3105373)   #10
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Just thinking about it, as the rev counter works when it is being cranked shows that the ECU is powered up.
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Old 12 Jul 2012, 11:43 (Ref:3105538)   #11
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Yeah thats what i was thinkin. Gonna do some tests on the loom. Make sure i dont have a breaks or bad joints etc.
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Old 12 Jul 2012, 12:55 (Ref:3105583)   #12
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It's been a long while since I last played about with this so if someone spots innacuracies, please feel free to correct me.
The CAN bus is a data bus that communicates with all other microprocessors on the modern road car, (ICE system, air con, instruments, auto gearbox contreller, electric seats, lights, electric windows, etc, etc). Think of the various parts of the car as being mini-computers, (built-into electric seats, ICE, etc) that need to talk to the main computer (ECU). The data bus is a 2-wire network (serial data bus) that sends and receives messgaes to and from the other mini-computers. The other systems connect onto the data bus via 'nodes' (think of it being branches of a tree with the trunk being the main data bus). Each end of the data bus needs to be 'terminated' with a resistor. One end is inside the ECU, and often on modern cars the other end is in the stereo (ICE) and sometimes in the instrument binnacle. Very modern cars have almost everything 'talking on CAN' but even older cars use CAN on in some instances, often going back 15+ years in many cases. Don't confuse this with OBD though. That is seperate and just allows the outside world to talk to the ECU through a dedicated port. For the Saxo, it might be worth plugging the stereo back in and Instrument binnacle to see if it makes a difference.
Good luck and I hope this helps rather than confuses!

Jason.
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Old 12 Jul 2012, 17:47 (Ref:3105684)   #13
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Jason. You may have thrown me a lifeline, the only significant thing i have removed is the airbag system. Could this be the missing link? Even on a year 2000 saxo vtr?
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 07:14 (Ref:3105905)   #14
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Keep us informed whatever you find is causing the problem, I did ask you if you had "done anything" as we get this all the time in today's world car related problems.
Had a Micra in that had a terrible problem that wouldn't rev up, no fault codes logged that turned out to be a brake light out !!!!
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 07:48 (Ref:3105918)   #15
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Yeah will do gordon. This is definately not the usual suspect, just sooooo frustrating. Looking like having to write this year off in terms if trackdays. Hopefully i find something stupid!!
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 12:41 (Ref:3106006)   #16
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No need to get complicated. Does the feul pump kick in, it should run for 2-3 seconds when the ignition is switched on. Have you got feul at the fuel rail. Is there a spark at the plugs.

John
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 13:23 (Ref:3106021)   #17
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I would say your airbag is a good starting point. It probably does communicate on CAN as it, along with the other restraint systems, (seatbelt pre-tensioners, are PRS - Primary Restraint Systems, Airbags are SRS - Secondary Restraint Systems - (which is why you see labels for airbags saying 'SRS')) need to all fire in synchronisation in the event of an impact. It will almost certainly talk to the ECU at the very least from a diagnostics perspective should a fault occur in any of the restraint systems.
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 13:25 (Ref:3106022)   #18
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most of the small peugoet/citroen cars like 106, saxo etc, have a big relay mounted under the ecu, its got about 16 pins, its a tachometric relay, it uses the rpm signal from the crank sensor to switch on the ignition coil, fuel pump etc, so if that relay is faulty or the crank sensor doesnt work you wont get power to the col etc, even though the ecu may be powered up
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 16:38 (Ref:3106074)   #19
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No need to get complicated. Does the feul pump kick in, it should run for 2-3 seconds when the ignition is switched on. Have you got feul at the fuel rail. Is there a spark at the plugs.

John
In his first post he said that there was no power to the coil pack if you read it, and the fact that the rev counter works when cranking shows that the CPS is working and the ECU is powered up at least .
I would assume when he also said that the fuel pump is OK he was getting fuel at the rail
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Old 15 Jul 2012, 17:21 (Ref:3106727)   #20
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Again thanks everyone for thier responses.
So now i have something to try. The airbag system i removed, i dont have the little wiring loom for it. Just an empty 4 wire connector, 2 of them being a 12v supply. What should i do with the other 2. Tried linking out, putting a 55ohm and around 110 ohm resistance across it( only resistors i had to hand). Is there anyone on here who races the saxo vtr and has already totally removed the airbag system??
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Old 22 Jul 2012, 19:39 (Ref:3109934)   #21
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Hey everyone

Firstly I would like to thank everyone for all the input into my problem, has really made me dig deep with the car and as a result I have learned plenty of new stuff.

Secondly, the car now runs, after numerous different directions of trying to find the problem I went back to the start. To keep it simple I started checking the loom and making sure things went where they should as per Haynes manual wiring schematic (which I might add tends to not give you the full picture and as usual colour cables not quite right and some items just not on the diagram) As the end result I found a supply to the fuel pump relay with only 10V on it, according to the diagram it should be spliced into another 12v supply at the relay which surprise surprise had 12v on it. So as simple as a bad joint. after repair car now runs as it did and at last I can carry on with the work I had planned.

So again just to thank you for helping me on my way, really appreciated.

Jon
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Old 22 Jul 2012, 20:05 (Ref:3109943)   #22
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English damp weather ! never happens where I am at the moment . As Johnny99 said you should have gone back to basics and I assumed you had !
Joking aside I'm glad you found it and found out a bit more about the problems you can have with todays marvelous electrical systems !

Last edited by GORDON STREETER; 22 Jul 2012 at 20:11.
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Old 23 Jul 2012, 05:52 (Ref:3110143)   #23
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Cheers gordon
I did do the usual twice before this but this was more about learning the car than anything tbh. Frustration does tend to cloud your judgement. But thanks for the help.
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Old 3 Aug 2012, 21:00 (Ref:3115776)   #24
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www.106rallye.co.uk
Good technical forum for all your TU engined issues ;-)
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Old 18 Sep 2015, 22:28 (Ref:3574747)   #25
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Originally Posted by Paceracing View Post
It's been a long while since I last played about with this so if someone spots innacuracies, please feel free to correct me.
The CAN bus is a data bus that communicates with all other microprocessors on the modern road car, (ICE system, air con, instruments, auto gearbox contreller, electric seats, lights, electric windows, etc, etc). Think of the various parts of the car as being mini-computers, (built-into electric seats, ICE, etc) that need to talk to the main computer (ECU). The data bus is a 2-wire network (serial data bus) that sends and receives messgaes to and from the other mini-computers. The other systems connect onto the data bus via 'nodes' (think of it being branches of a tree with the trunk being the main data bus). Each end of the data bus needs to be 'terminated' with a resistor. One end is inside the ECU, and often on modern cars the other end is in the stereo (ICE) and sometimes in the instrument binnacle. Very modern cars have almost everything 'talking on CAN' but even older cars use CAN on in some instances, often going back 15+ years in many cases. Don't confuse this with OBD though. That is seperate and just allows the outside world to talk to the ECU through a dedicated port. For the Saxo, it might be worth plugging the stereo back in and Instrument binnacle to see if it makes a difference.
Good luck and I hope this helps rather than confuses!

Jason.
Hi Jason, very late reply of course but this could be a lifeline for myself as it is the only thing related to my car. Replaced the CD player a few days ago and within a minute the hole car went. Won't even try to start. Still have this problem. Any more details about this you can give me?
Cheers Jason.
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