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26 Jun 2019, 10:47 (Ref:3914249) | #51 | ||
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'Back in the day ...' unreliability played a big part in results, strategies and rewarded those who were both fast and able to look after the car. Whether is helped the spectacle or the championships is up for debate but, with most tracks being used at the time not offering good track edges or usable run-off areas (hard or soft) it seemed to encourage the 'pilotes' to drive within the lines if only to avoid breaking anything or risking a puncture. |
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26 Jun 2019, 11:06 (Ref:3914251) | #52 | |||
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The light doesn't convey any information, it is simply a blue beacon designed to warn the driver ahead that a much faster car is approaching. Otherwise all the slower driver will see is dazzling lights, often being flashed. The Nurburgring is brutal. It is narrow, twisting, dark and has barriers a few yards from the sides of the track. The 24H race has everything from GT3s driven by WEC world champs to little hatchbacks driven by amateurs. There are loads of classes so many different speeds. It's actually hardest for the middle-level classes (who are both overtaking and being overtaken) than the fastest or slowest. At the same time as all this there are regularly intervention vehicles on track, either rescuing cars, repairing barriers or just moving from point to point. This is managed with yellow or white flags, slow zones and code 60s, there are no safety cars. All this is why a specific permit is required with quite demanding participation requirements (including having to do a race in a slower car). Yet, to bring it back to this thread's topic, I reckon there are fewer egregious examples of poor driving during the 24 hours of the N24 than you'll see in an ordinary club meeting in the UK, or for that matter in Pro-Am events like Blancpain, which is regularly a demolition derby. The organisers are extremely strict, the participation requirements are steep and the track itself savagely punishes poor or dangerous driving. |
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I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills. |
26 Jun 2019, 11:09 (Ref:3914252) | #53 | |||
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I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills. |
26 Jun 2019, 11:36 (Ref:3914256) | #54 | ||
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It's difficult! It only takes one driver to use a bit more of the scenery and not get penalised for all to then do it - otherwise the level playing field is gone. So you've got to be super strict with whatever rule you decide, because if people think you'll get away with it sometimes, they'll play the odds.
Getting rid of kerbs and making run-offs much less friendly doesn't seem too likely as a solution, as much as it might hark back to the golden days (in some senses - ignoring the massively increased injury/fatality!) Taking my own world in terms of karts, pretty much everywhere we race is also used for corporate/hire karting (can't think of an exception right now). The trend has been towards flatter kerbs and more run off because injuring paying members of the public is bad for business. Yes, those of us doing it regularly at a higher level could certainly keep it within the lines (normally), but a first timer maybe not - and that's who they'll "look after". Buckmore, for example, has just ripped out the nasty serration and sausage through the esses and replaced it with something you can run quite happily. I imagine the same may well apply to "big car tracks" as well in terms of track days and so on. I don't think any driver would actually mind, whatever the regulations were, provided they were enforced strictly, consistently and full-time - otherwise it's a battle with the rules. |
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26 Jun 2019, 12:07 (Ref:3914259) | #55 | ||
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Build a moat round both sides of the track
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
26 Jun 2019, 14:38 (Ref:3914277) | #56 | ||
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It is only fine to have two wheels on the kerb if they are on the kerb and not over the other side regardless of whether the other two wheels are still within the white line. |
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26 Jun 2019, 15:14 (Ref:3914289) | #57 | |||
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Having just caught up yesterday with my recording of the BTCC at Croft, where as ever the esses after Clervaux appear to be treated as a straight line, application of the rules is a little patchy, it would seem |
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Richard Murtha: You don't stop racing because you are too old, you get old when you stop racing! But its looking increasingly likely that I've stopped.....have to go back to rallying ;) |
26 Jun 2019, 15:15 (Ref:3914290) | #58 | ||
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As a Clerk, too my mind the simple solution is something that's not in the Yellow/Blue/Gold/White book ( delete as appropriate), it's called common sense
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Comments made are personal and don't reflect any club or Motorsport UK policy. "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein |
26 Jun 2019, 16:04 (Ref:3914300) | #59 | ||
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Thank you this is damn right.
We all know the rules they are clear and displayed everywhere and we all attend briefings. It works in the Uk and in other countries. So what? You'll always have a small batch of drivers playing the game with their own rules, mainly pas vu pas pris, overtaking anywhere, SC FYC, jump start and so on. With the help of CoC's, marshals and live timing they can be caught, this kind of attitude is dangerous must be policed and punished . Unacceptable, modern F1 or clubby. |
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Celui qui est parti de rien pour arriver nulle part,n'a de merci a dire a personne.Pour ceux qui vont chercher midi a quatorze heures, la minute de Vérité risque de se faire attendre longtemps. |
26 Jun 2019, 16:10 (Ref:3914302) | #60 | |||
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As shown in baubles lovely video earlier, back in the day common sense was used and so rule books that look like (old) telephone directories (have you seen how small these are nowadays?) were not needed... |
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26 Jun 2019, 16:39 (Ref:3914307) | #61 | ||
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In both the in car videos (where it seemed to flash a lot) and the external shots they looked like panels that displayed characters that changed in some sort of cyclical fashion. Might simply have been an effect of the video recording frame rate I suppose? But the changes as I perceived them (and assuming they exised!) certainly suggested that they were presenting some sort of information for use by someone. |
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26 Jun 2019, 16:53 (Ref:3914309) | #62 | |||
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Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein) |
3 Jul 2019, 07:22 (Ref:3915613) | #63 | |
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Ok, so, having watched the replays of the Grand Prix at the weekend how would would you react when a kid in a Formula Ford in a club race does the same as Max Claire? Because the ISC which was used to ok this devolves to the MUK regulations. Can we miss the apex and push the other car off the road?
With your imaginary wall that could not have happened........ |
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3 Jul 2019, 08:55 (Ref:3915624) | #64 | ||
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With a wall or even grass there Leclerc would have lifted and undercut. Acres of tarmac? I'll just keep my foot in and see what happens.
That was a very common karting move, Charles was "podded" off. Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk |
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Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
3 Jul 2019, 09:10 (Ref:3915628) | #65 | |
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So is “podding off” (ohh er missus) an accepted or acceptable move?
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3 Jul 2019, 09:28 (Ref:3915635) | #66 | |||
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Viewing a lot of club racing thorough a camera lens, I have to say I do not see many instances of poor driving standards, at least in terms of aggressive behaviour. In terms of race craft …………………? |
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3 Jul 2019, 09:34 (Ref:3915637) | #67 | ||
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Celui qui est parti de rien pour arriver nulle part,n'a de merci a dire a personne.Pour ceux qui vont chercher midi a quatorze heures, la minute de Vérité risque de se faire attendre longtemps. |
3 Jul 2019, 09:43 (Ref:3915640) | #68 | ||
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I was going to ask on the F1 forum what would have happened had there been a wall on the outside of the corner, but difficult to get an objective discussion sometimes on there...
I agree with Max that Leclerc would have lifted and gone for the undercut, as the commentators love to call it nowadays. As for whether the MV move was legitimate or not, my guess is that in single seater club racing it wouldn’t have even been questioned? If I had been in Leclerc’s position, I would have lifted and tucked in, but I’m a long long way from that level of racing! |
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3 Jul 2019, 10:40 (Ref:3915653) | #69 | |||
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The other bane of any karter's life is that oft-misquoted phrase from Senna: "If you no longer go for a gap that exists you are no longer a racing driver. " Everyone forgets the words "that exists!" Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk |
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Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
3 Jul 2019, 12:01 (Ref:3915667) | #70 | ||
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[QUOTE=Mike Bell;3915640]I was going to ask on the F1 forum what would have happened had there been a wall on the outside of the corner, but difficult to get an objective discussion sometimes on there...
Mike! You must be a very brave man indeed to even consider venturing on to the F1Forum, and in any case the word 'wall' would have confused most of the posters there. |
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3 Jul 2019, 12:48 (Ref:3915676) | #71 | |||
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If it's necessary or not is another matter, the BRSCC FFord race @ Mallory a few weeks ago involving yourself, your son, Peter Daly, Jack Wolfenden, Stuart Kestenbaum, Mark Bates et al was an absolute classic and had a worthy winner |
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Comments made are personal and don't reflect any club or Motorsport UK policy. "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein |
3 Jul 2019, 12:57 (Ref:3915678) | #72 | ||
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There's a further issue here that helps confuse the situation. Motorbikes.
To stop cars using the kerbs what we need is big, uncomfortable ones that they'd rather keep off. Unfortunately bikers don't like them (for understandable reasons) so we have stupid flat ones which just become part of the track. And then FIA events allow them to use not just that but large parts of the run-off as well (I was track limits at WEC a while back, F3s were given to the edge of the green paint as a limit, about 3 car widths outside the track, and were also given three goes at it. It should be the same as rugby. Touch the white line, take a driver through. End of. Possibly we could write a rule which allows for avoidance, but only if someone can come up with a way that it's not used as a loophole. |
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3 Jul 2019, 13:14 (Ref:3915683) | #73 | ||
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It's not only bikes, it's things like track days and corporate days. Driving skills (not standards) are *sometimes* lower and often drivers/operators don't like the thought of their cars clunking on a huge kerb. It's not for nothing that the Bedford Autodrome is the most liked corporate venue in the UK. With its billiard smooth grass you can push to the limit without risk of damage.
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3 Jul 2019, 13:38 (Ref:3915687) | #74 | ||
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Not my area of expertise, but I always think that an off track excursion of this nature should carry a penalty, perhaps 'run off' areas should be designed to slow a car down in some way, without causing a danger.
Some sort of surface that increases drag, the current smooth surface does nothing to deter it's use. Where's me hat? |
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3 Jul 2019, 15:07 (Ref:3915699) | #75 | |||
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Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein) |
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