Vettel has joined Toro Rosso/Now signed for 2008!

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by The Saint

I do 'follow the sport closely' and have done so since the late 70's, and I too cannot say that sutil has shown what you claim. In many races Sutil has looked just as clumsy as his team-mate.

Apologies, wasn't trying to sound arrogant or anything. BUT...Sutil hasn't looked as clumsy as Albers at all, that just isn't the case. And it isn't just what I claim that Sutil has been doing a great job, pretty much everyone else agrees too, including other drivers. I don't know if it is the media in the USA not picking up on Sutil's ability as some have said may be the case, but if you can't see that Sutil is doing a fine job, you're missing something.

[ghinzani]

If RB do withdraw their support of Speed then I dont see him getting much else in the way of rides, he would need money for Champcars surely?

[Bluewolf]

Originally Posted by ghinzani

If RB do withdraw their support of Speed then I dont see him getting much else in the way of rides, he would need money for Champcars surely?

I don't know how that works out exactly as far as money -- But he was better than Jani in GP2 and Jani is having a very good CC season. I expect Speed would be quicker than Jani if Red Bull takes Speed over the floundering Gommendy and teams him up with Jani.

[Bluewolf]

Originally Posted by andy_b

Its a tought introduction, no test (I think) and straight into the Hungarian GP. He did well when he sub'd for Kubica though.

I just hope all the Speed fans dont complain about Vittel after just one race, he needs a bit of time.

If he subbed well for Kubica then he should be fast versus Liuzzi here -- If he's not resonably competitive with Liuzzi here then it will show that Speed and Liuzzi have been underrated in my opinion. I personally think he will do well but I don't think he's "that" much better I think eventually you'll see him qualify a bit quicker than Tonio - but then, Speed outqualified Tonio for the last three races so I don't know what that will mean. If he's not clearly quicker than Tonio within three races then he's not much better than Speed or Liuzzi. Not that that's bad because IMO I feel both Speed and Liuzzi are a underated and in cars that only a Senna could make go fast.

[flor]

I dont know Speed well enough, but i think Liuzzi is a very talented driver without the right attitude. He seems to focus to much on other things beside his job. Vettel on the other side is known for jogging around the race track every morning at 7am back in FBMW.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Now all they need to do is change that awful livery.

That is all they need is it?

[rocketracer]

well, it always seemed a particularly unhappy marriage of speed / liuzzi and STR - the team doesnt have the funds for the young guys to really thrash the car, and the team doesnt have the knowhow for the young guys to show their potential (which incidentally. I dont think speed or liuzzi are lacking pace, but pace is nothing on its own in modern F1. Being faultless is expected to be standard from modern drivers, and then how much pace they can sustain after that separates the better drivers from the pack. So, neither parties are benefitting from the arrangement, so time for a change.

Vettel i think will fit in much better, because he has a systematic, methodical approach (he reminds me a little of alonso at minardi), who makes very few mistakes from my impressions of him.

Neither Speed or Liuzzi get the most out of a trailing team like STR, they're just the wrong drivers to have in that team. But having said that, the same could have been said of massa a few seasons back as well........

[Patrick Fletche]

What STR need is Stepney, or someone like Stepney. They seem to have all the right ingredients but lack the top class race engineering to get it all to work.
For Vettel I think it is a bad career move. Test driver at BMW with their money and facilities is far better than race driver at STR with little money and dodgy management.
I hope Speed stays in F1 as a test driver for a better team (or does GP2). This would position him to replace one of the large number of current F1 drivers who are retiring over the next 1 to 3 years.
Also it looks like Red Bull made a big mistake in having two F1 teams. If they had put all their talent and resources into just RBR they would probably be doing better. STR has turned out just to be a distraction from the main event.

[spider]

from what we know of Liuzzi's and Speeds personalities you can immediately see they seem a little immature, sulky even, and are unlikely to get the best out of a large adult organisation.

Vettel and Bourdais, looking at their approaches to motorsport, the dedication they both show as well as their pace, it looks like a far more formidable team and one that will help get the team heading the right way.

You have to wonder why Tost was so angry with Speed. Yes he's a prat, but what sort of pressure is Tost under that made him snap? If he's got targets that aren't being achieved by Red Bull, then what implications does that have on the team and him?

[Bluewolf]

Originally Posted by Patrick Fletche

I hope Speed stays in F1 as a test driver for a better team (or does GP2). This would position him to replace one of the large number of current F1 drivers who are retiring over the next 1 to 3 years.

Sorry to go off topic but --- Speaking of test drivers, does anyone know why RBR has no test driver??? I think it's the only team without a test driver.

[Down F0rce]

Ammermuller and Dornboos are both officialy test drivers, although they are obviously busy with different things these days!

[FPV GTHO]

Well right now i believe Dornboos is obviously occupied with Champ Cars in the US and Ammermuller has a broken wrist or something. Previously they had both on call though, and in the most recent test they had another one of their development drivers in for the first and final day.

[jab]

Yep. Sebastien Buemi. Plus they've had a couple of different drivers doing the street demos - Filip Albuquerque was one, I believe

[BootsOntheSide]

Buemi looks like quite a good prospect long-term, as does Ammermuller if he recovers fully. In some ways Vettel has jumped the queue through his BMW involvment; he looks a better talent than Speed or Liuzzi, but will STR's management give him the chance to prove it.

[Knowlesy]

Sad, in a way, to see Speed go. Can't say I rated him and I found tedius the constant "battle against bad health throughout career" story that alone seemed to justify his existence in F1, but I thought him a better bet than Liuzzi. Marginally.

Vitantonio survives then and can now continue to fund his dreadful fashion tastes to excess.

So Vettel is in then. A good choice. I don't expect him to blow away Liuzzi immediately like most, but I think he will assert himself by seasons end as the much stronger driver. It adds a bit of interest to proceedings anyways.

However, regular points? Doubt it. STR have no idea how their car works!

[Born Racer]

Toro Rosso are rubbish and a waste of a good space in F1 for a team that doesn't try to live off the coattails of another team, and fails completely in doing so.

[trevisio]

Sorry guys I havent read the whole thread, but what is the point of Vettel joining Toro Rosso? They are not exactly going to make him look good are they....especially in the year of Lewis Hamilton at McLaren who he will undoubtedly be compared to. Maybe he has a contract upgrading to a full BMW or Red Bull drive at some point.

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Toro Rosso are rubbish and a waste of a good space in F1 for a team that doesn't try to live off the coattails of another team, and fails completely in doing so.

This is an interesting enough proposition if expanded upon, but not much on its own.

[johntt]

i think the problem at str lies in that they have a highly advanced car designed by one the greatest designers ever, and a very good engine, but lack the knowledge and resources to deploy it properly.

[Born Racer]

This is an interesting enough proposition if expanded upon, but not much on its own.

Well, you may know from previous posts that I don't personally like the idea of customer cars in F1. I particularly dislike it though when a situation isn't transparent. Because of the teams being unsure about the regulations themselves, or unsure of how other teams/a court will view the regulations (take Sypker's legal case for example), they are very "hush-hush" and secretive about how much of the car is actually their own.

Why otherwise would Super Aguri be so discreet about the extent to which their car is a 2006 Honda? It's hard to like or support a team when such things are not made clear. It's not good for the sport to have no clear consensus itself on how the rules stand.

The whole Toro Rosso thing looks particularly messy because we don't know to what extent exactly these teams are operating as one. In theory, all teams should have to compete each other and should not share information, but we know that to some extent Red Bull and Toro Rosso function as one team..perhaps in all the ways that suit Red Bull. For example they may give each other detailed technical information about their findings in a test session, but at what point do they no longer share?

Do they share strategy information? It seems that Red Bull pulls the strings in this relationship between its own proper team and Toro Rosso, so we end up with a weakened team being partly controlled by another. Toro Rosso is in this respect a waste of space, because another completely independent team could instead be operating off its own back.

I repeat though, we, the general spectating public, still don't know to what extent these teams are one. Such confusion should not exist.

[Dutton]

There is nothing wrong with consensual information sharing. That is a different thing. It is the use of the information that is relevant.

Perhaps it is all these unknowns that has spurred the push for customer cars? If you let them happen, then the mystery disappears.

[Born Racer]

There is nothing wrong with consensual information sharing. That is a different thing. It is the use of the information that is relevant.

Can you explain this as it's not something I understand?

Perhaps it is all these unknowns that has spurred the push for customer cars? If you let them happen, then the mystery disappears.

It's hardly a justification for customer cars though is it? A bit like the way the FIA re-allowed traction control because they said it would be too hard to police, so they just let it in (not too hard to police with a standard ECU though I see they've finally decided!)

[Dutton]

Well, I mean, for instance, teams working together with tyre companies. Two teams can choose to share each other's information in this regard if they want, but obviously if this happened against the will then it would be wrong.

Well, there has to be pragmatism involved in regulation making. If you want a reasonable attempt at fair ones, that is.

[andy_b]

Originally Posted by trevisio

Sorry guys I havent read the whole thread, but what is the point of Vettel joining Toro Rosso? They are not exactly going to make him look good are they....especially in the year of Lewis Hamilton at McLaren who he will undoubtedly be compared to. Maybe he has a contract upgrading to a full BMW or Red Bull drive at some point.

from BMW's perspective, I'm sure its more about getting track time in a racing environment, rather than testing. They know he's good, to BMW they are just preparing Vittel.

[JohnSSC]

I agree with you, andy_b. As I wondered earlier about the purpose of this, it looks more to me like Vettel will get race experience which will benefit him immensely as he goes forward with BMW.

I think of him as being on loan - like a football club will do with a promising youngster: loan him out to a Gillingham or some such to get some game experience rather than have him sit. I think BMW is doing the same here.

So that brings us to the who will stay and who will go at BMW in 2008?