The broad sunlit uplands of next March. Yeah, really. .

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Agreed it is rather old.

Could be, but I doubt anyone in the negotiating team would think of that.

It does look like the "negotiating team" would struggle to decide whether to have tea or coffee let alone agree anything complicated!

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Meanwhile I'm wondering how people are feeling about having to vote for the "unelected" EU??

I'll answer this question Peter. Personally I view it as another complete waste of time and money, in the same way as the whole Brexit shambles has been so far, and continues to be. based on the scant information that I had available to me at the time of the referendum, I actually voted to remain. However I accepted that I was in the minority, and have since that time hoped that the 'powers that be' would do their utmost to secure the best possible deal for us to leave, and to do so as efficiently (time & finances) as possible, but this has not happened either.
I will be visiting the polling station for the vote, but plan to spoil my paper as I see no point in voting for something that we are not supposed to be involved in. Hopefully my spoiled vote will be registered as an indication of how fed up I am about the whole shambles we have endured since the referendum, and not just brushed aside as a petty knee-jerk reaction.

[Mike Bell]

For the first time in all the years I've been able to vote, as a protest against the whole shambles my postal vote is also being returned ‘spoiled’......

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by AndrewCherry

They don't "need" £39Bn, it's £39Bn we'd already agreed to pay as part of long term commitments, so it's expected to be paid if we're going to be a country that can be trusted. We can definitely refuse to pay it, and refuse to abide by agreements full stop - but I wouldn't expect it to do our ability to do all these amazing trade deals we keep hearing about much good - people don't tend to be that keen on agreements with people who probably won't stick to them.

The £39Bn thing, like much of the rest of this crap, is a tragic example of people not really getting the relative expenditure that large nations spend on things. The amount of money we contribute to EU funding is NOT MUCH. The amount we're expected to pay (the £39Bn) is NOT MUCH. Yes, it's a lot to an individual, but for a wealthy nation, these things are not the terrifying figures that populist rabble-rousers have made them out to be.

It may be 'not much' to you - but if the cost of employing a policeman or teacher or nurse is £100,000 per annum we could have 390,000 more of them. 130,000 teachers is 5 new staff at every state primary and secondary school. 130,000 nurses is 750 new ones for every NHS Trust. 130,000 policemen would DOUBLE the number we have now.
And people wonder why our public services are struggling to cope.
Discuss.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

It may be 'not much' to you - but if the cost of employing a policeman or teacher or nurse is £100,000 per annum we could have 390,000 more of them. 130,000 teachers is 5 new staff at every state primary and secondary school. 130,000 nurses is 750 new ones for every NHS Trust. 130,000 policemen would DOUBLE the number we have now.
And people wonder why our public services are struggling to cope.
Discuss.

Your figures may possibly be correct, but then you can do anything with such statistics. And it's also highly emotive.

What is missing from the fact that it is claimed that the "divorce" cost is about £39 billion is how many years the payments will be spread over. It also covers the cost of providing the pensions for past and present MEPs and commissioners that both came from the UK.

People want to metaphorically string up people like Philip Green for allegedly avoiding his responsibilities for funding the pensions of his past employees, but seem to think that it is quite acceptable for the UK to do so for it's liabilities to the EU.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

For the first time in all the years I've been able to vote, as a protest against the whole shambles my postal vote is also being returned ‘spoiled’......

I posted this link previously : http://www.votenone.org.uk/protest_votes_count.html

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I posted this link previously : http://www.votenone.org.uk/protest_votes_count.html

Done.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Your figures may possibly be correct, but then you can do anything with such statistics. And it's also highly emotive.

What is missing from the fact that it is claimed that the "divorce" cost is about £39 billion is how many years the payments will be spread over. It also covers the cost of providing the pensions for past and present MEPs and commissioners that both came from the UK.

People want to metaphorically string up people like Philip Green for allegedly avoiding his responsibilities for funding the pensions of his past employees, but seem to think that it is quite acceptable for the UK to do so for it's liabilities to the EU.

I'm talking about the 39 billion we've thrown at the EU annually in the past, and some people would wish to have us doing every year in the future too.
Show me a remainer who's not emotive. Tell me the distraction tactics of Philip Green and pensions isn't being highly emotive.
For the sake of accuracy (sorry to labour the point but I like accuracy) it's only 'some' people who want to string up Philip Green - many are of the opinion that if it's legal then it's fine. If the Government can't introduce and enforce the legislation to outlaw such behaviour then who are we to question it? Further, as you correctly point out, it's only 'allegedly'!

[AndrewCherry]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

I'm talking about the 39 billion we've thrown at the EU annually in the past, and some people would wish to have us doing every year in the future too.

But we don't contribute 39Bn annually. We contribute about 13Bn annually, and the EU invests about 4Bn annually in the UK, so we contribute around 9Bn annually (net). It's not a trivial amount of money, but it's around 1.1% of govt. expenditure. For comparison, health is about 20%, welfare about 25% and pensions about 13%. It's less than we spend servicing the interest on the national debt for example.

I am definitely all for having a grown up conversation in this country about how we spend money, what value we see for it, and whether it's spent wisely - but there would be many things an accountant would look at first before EU funding if you presented them with the UK budget and said you couldn't afford it.

(This is, of course, ignoring all of the secondary benefits of trade, etc.)

[bauble]

The point that probably all Remainers miss is that the decision to leave was never about money, that was just a distraction by politicians. Everyone I have spoken to, listened to, who voted to Leave, wanted freedom from Brussels what ever the cost. You can not put a price on freedom, and while 'freedom' is perhaps a little emotive, it is the principle that we voted for. Freedom to make our own rules, freedom to control our own borders, freedom to trade where we liked with who we liked. If we don't like the government we can change it, If we don't like Brussels! Hard luck.

Being one of 27 countries does not give us much of a say in how the EU is run, and as most reap a net benefit from their membership, they don't care about corruption, mismanagement, and un elected bureaucrats running their lives.

I do and so do millions of others.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I'll answer this question Peter. Personally I view it as another complete waste of time and money.

It definitely is a waste of time and money.
But the main point was, many of the people who want to leave keep saying the EU is unelected (along with many other untruths they have been fed), when it turns out the EU is elected in pretty much the same way as the UK govt. but the UK govt. has spent many years avoiding explaining how it all works etc...

[Peter Mallett]

It most certainly is not elected. The EU Parliament has no power over the executive. Read the treaties.

To be clear up until Juncker there was no pan European voting for the EU President.

whether the EU should continue to use the Spitzenkandidat system. That sees pan-EU political groups in the European Parliament choose a lead candidate with the group, made up of national parties with similar politics, receiving the most votes having its candidate take the top job.

As the above quote points out, there is a move to do away with elections for the President so tell me that this is a democratic system.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

It most certainly is not elected. The EU Parliament has no power over the executive. Read the treaties.

To be clear up until Juncker there was no pan European voting for the EU President.



As the above quote points out, there is a move to do away with elections for the President so tell me that this is a democratic system.

As with the UK govt. where the public don't elect the civil service.

[Peter Mallett]

The Civil Service is not the government. See separation of powers.

The Civil Service does not have any legislative powers.

Role of the Civil Service in British Life - Civil Service in the UK

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The Civil Service is not the government. See separation of powers.

The Civil Service does not have any legislative powers.

Role of the Civil Service in British Life - Civil Service in the UK

So, similar to the Commission who only suggest legislation?

[Peter Mallett]

No quite the opposite. English Law is set by parliament. Read that link, the UK Civil Service are non political and do not set political agendas.

Ergo it cannot set laws. The EU commission sets laws by way of a non elected body via the treaties.

[coppice]

Interesting that since 1979 , turnout in EU elections in UK has varied between a high of 37% and a low of - FFS - 24% . I have voted in each , but I wonder how many wittering about democracy even voted ? Less depressing in general elections - between 59 and 76 % - but as people have died for the right to vote it is still pathetic.



But give 'em a binary choice , with bogey men, false information and panto villains on both sides and they turn out almost enthusiastically, with just the 28% of the lazy arses staying at home

[Peter Mallett]

The same is reflected across Europe. I think you'll find that turnout for the EU elections is pretty dire all over.

People really should stop trying to criticise people who voted to leave and try to understand why it happened.

[Gerard C]

May be it will be hard to convince people that they must vote to see some change… In Scandinavia, white vote is analyzed seriously while in France many wonder why they should wake up on a Sunday morning to say neither one nor the other.

[coppice]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The same is reflected across Europe. I think you'll find that turnout for the EU elections is pretty dire all over.

People really should stop trying to criticise people who voted to leave and try to understand why it happened.

I can certainly understand why it happened in some areas - I may be a Remainer but it would be disingenous to ignore the folly of unrestricted movement of workers . Areas like Boston buckled under the seams and whilst I don't buy all the 'EU workers stole my job' rhetoric, there is an element of truth .



But far more insidious was the effect of successive administrations on formerly industrial areas , often , but not exclusively in the North. Having been screwed by loss of heavy industry , no prospect of recovery ,a decade of austerity , no prospect of decent work and then being told by Cameron ( other wa**ers are available ) that we were all in this together ...I am sure many voted purely out of vengeance and doing the opposite of whatever the likes of Cameron said they should .



God knows why so many leavers worship at the shrine of Boris though ? Inexplicable . Garden Bridge anyone ?

[grantp]

Originally Posted by coppice

God knows why so many leavers worship at the shrine of Boris though ? Inexplicable . Garden Bridge anyone ?

Might work but to use him would require a very narrow stream.

Still, it would probably be the best thing that could be done with him.

A couple of water cannon to keep the flow passing under him would not go amiss.

[Mike Bell]

Just realised that the Eurovision Song Contest was last weekend while I was away.

Did we win?

[Peter Mallett]

Apparently we came last. Can't think why......

[midgetman]

We've just had a some points knocked off as well.

Can't think why? A bland and boring sing with no effort out in to the staging won't help.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Peter Mallett]

Hey, I'm not criticising anyone, I don't watch it anyway.