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Old 23 Nov 2021, 17:52 (Ref:4085166)   #401
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My view is simplistic, I just wish drivers were required to drive on the track. Not the bits beyond the kerbs. Not any bits beyond the kerbs. There was one corner sequence in the Qatar race where every driver was yards off the actual track surface on every lap but for some reason this was completely unpoliced.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 19:23 (Ref:4085179)   #402
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The problem is, if everyone is doing it, then there’s no advantage to be gained and couldn’t easily single out certain drivers for punishment
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 19:42 (Ref:4085183)   #403
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Unintended consequences is still the responsibility of the instigator/perpetrator.
If only your father thought about that 9 months before your birth
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 19:56 (Ref:4085188)   #404
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Do people think that if the tracks were all lined with grass and gravel that drivers would still be forcing other drivers off the road?
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 20:08 (Ref:4085189)   #405
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Do people think that if the tracks were all lined with grass and gravel that drivers would still be forcing other drivers off the road?
I think they would still force drivers off, but what happened in Brazil wouldn't occur because the driver doing the forcing would ensure he’d stay on the circuit.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 21:58 (Ref:4085194)   #406
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If only your father thought about that 9 months before your birth
Is that necessary?
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 22:30 (Ref:4085197)   #407
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Is that necessary?
Absolutely. He blew up so much about my comments over the Monza/Silverstone clashes being linked (More than I ever anticipated any poster doing so) that that's all he's got.

He knows Hamilton got away with it at Silverstone.

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If only your father thought about that 9 months before your birth
lol

Of course, he did. That's why he didn't wear a condom with my mum, but heeded the advice of the rest of the football division, and wore one with yours.

Your guilty conscience over Silverstone has been lit up!

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I think they would still force drivers off, but what happened in Brazil wouldn't occur because the driver doing the forcing would ensure he’d stay on the circuit.
In Verstappen's case, it would've encouraged him.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 22:39 (Ref:4085198)   #408
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I was referring to unintended consequences of the regulation, such as ending up punishing drivers for incidents that were not within the purview of the rule change. The complexity introduced by factoring in multiple additional components when assessing an incident is so great that such unanticipated outcomes are pretty much inevitable. Those then get solved by adding additional wording in an ongoing game of regulatory whack-a-mole.

I do have sympathy with the underlying motivation for this discussion: a driver being found at fault for a collision which put his rival out of a race, yet going on to win. The problem with trying to regulate away such an inequity is that the regulation has to be so specific that it will probably never be used because it was such a freak one-off, or it will be drawn so broad as to catch far less contentious incidents.
I think the complexity comes from not focussing on the common factors that there are in crashes, and not having a "racing philosophy" around.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 22:40 (Ref:4085199)   #409
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There are some posters I think the posting style of and opinions are a bit nuffie, but I keep those thoughts to myself and I'm certainly not chirping from my high horse that their parents should ponder their child's very existence. (and no "it was tongue in cheek" comment is going to change that)

It's hypocritical high school level stuff.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 23:01 (Ref:4085200)   #410
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There are some posters I think the posting style of and opinions are a bit nuffie, but I keep those thoughts to myself and I'm certainly not chirping from my high horse that their parents should ponder their child's very existence. (and no "it was tongue in cheek" comment is going to change that)

It's hypocritical high school level stuff.
We only see this type of comment from ascarracinguk because Hamilton did not get appropriately punished at Silverstone.

He got the equivalent of a suspended sentence.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 23:15 (Ref:4085202)   #411
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No; over the years we've seen that kind of reply from a large number of exasperated members who reply to people who absolutely will not accept that other people can hold a point of view that might be directly in opposition or even slightly tangential to their own.

If you (hypothetical you) were in a pub having the same conversation, just stop and ponder whether or not the number of people round your table will reduce. If the pub is a forum like this, with an awful lot of real F1 enthusiasts rather than "fans", do you think they'd hang around or just go somewhere else?

I know in another thread someone said "read the room". Do that. Endlessly chipping away at every single comment everyone else makes just isn't productive.

As Arabella Weir's character in The Fast Show used to say: no offence. But if anyone takes it as offensive, hey ho.
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 00:39 (Ref:4085209)   #412
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No; over the years we've seen that kind of reply from a large number of exasperated members who reply to people who absolutely will not accept that other people can hold a point of view that might be directly in opposition or even slightly tangential to their own.

If you (hypothetical you) were in a pub having the same conversation, just stop and ponder whether or not the number of people round your table will reduce. If the pub is a forum like this, with an awful lot of real F1 enthusiasts rather than "fans", do you think they'd hang around or just go somewhere else?

I know in another thread someone said "read the room". Do that. Endlessly chipping away at every single comment everyone else makes just isn't productive.

As Arabella Weir's character in The Fast Show used to say: no offence. But if anyone takes it as offensive, hey ho.
I recognise that Skam85 does not condone ascarracinguk's cheap shot at me, and that you do.
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 00:49 (Ref:4085211)   #413
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Enough of the personal sniping at each other.

The rules are attack the post not the poster.

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Old 24 Nov 2021, 03:19 (Ref:4085220)   #414
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It's a "no" from the FIA regarding the idea of permanent stewards.
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 04:38 (Ref:4085224)   #415
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20 of us started an online Xbox racing league on F1 2021 to keep us all sane during lockdown.

We have permanent (and anonymous) stewards that reviews incidents. Works a treat, FIA have missed a trick here
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 07:06 (Ref:4085233)   #416
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Is that necessary?
It’s called a joke, hence the laughing emoji…

…as Christian Horner would say, I’m sorry if you took offence
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 07:10 (Ref:4085234)   #417
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Absolutely. He blew up so much about my comments over the Monza/Silverstone clashes being linked (More than I ever anticipated any poster doing so) that that's all he's got.

He knows Hamilton got away with it at Silverstone.


lol

Of course, he did. That's why he didn't wear a condom with my mum, but heeded the advice of the rest of the football division, and wore one with yours.

Your guilty conscience over Silverstone has been lit up!



In Verstappen's case, it would've encouraged him.
Lmfao I’ve not blown Up over anything

You’re just baiting and trying to twist words as usual to fan the flames. Don’t play the victim here, your posts are deliberate attempts to get people frustrated. I think most have been very retrained here responding to your posts, multiple times, on multiple threads about the same incident 6 months on.

There’s no point in trying to hold a conversation with you anymore because you’re like a broken record and repeat the same old stuff on every single post.

As above…read the room

I’m out. You won’t have the satisfaction or attention of another reply

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Old 24 Nov 2021, 08:50 (Ref:4085239)   #418
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Each of you thinks you are putting the other one straight and making cogent, debate-winning points that show your greater knowledge.

The rest of us see the online equivalent of two drunks shouting at each other in the street.
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 09:02 (Ref:4085240)   #419
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Each of you thinks you are putting the other one straight and making cogent, debate-winning points that show your greater knowledge.

The rest of us see the online equivalent of two drunks shouting at each other in the street.
Im not trying to win any debate, i put forward my point of view and then try to explain it or reinfoce it if i dont seem to be getting it across, and have been doing so since i joined this forum over 21 years ago...more than 3500 posts and not one issue with another forum member of which i know dozens in the actual flesh from Le Mans and marshalling, until 2LTC cropped up.

It does make me smile inside a bit that there is another character, on another motorsport forum who trolls over there, posting in the same manner.

People can make of that as they wish.

Anyway, as i said, im out. Best course of action is just to ignore 2LTC...i try to get on with people, but if all else fails, just blank them out and its happier for everyone.

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Old 24 Nov 2021, 11:19 (Ref:4085259)   #420
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They tried that before from 2006-07. Then they dropped it for some unknown reason. I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. It’s not like football when you have many matches on one day, so have to have different refs. Driver stewards has no doubt helped a bit, but still too much inconsistency from stewards that has gone on for too long
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 11:26 (Ref:4085260)   #421
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I think it should be kept on record for a rolling 12 months (like I presume the current penalty points system works?). That would stop drivers being overly aggressive in the first few races.
It didn't work because some people in F1 judged the permanent Stewards their own $h*tty standards and started claiming they were biased..... or rather not biased in their direction When you have a Team Principal questioning who should decide the value of yellow flags there is little hope....
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 11:26 (Ref:4085261)   #422
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They tried that before from 2006-07. Then they dropped it for some unknown reason. I don’t see why it wouldn’t work.
I think it was dropped due to perceived bias.

Can you imagine the conversations here if, for example:

Stewards found no fault at Silverstone (many here would agree). Same stewards found Max at fault at Monza (many here would agree). Same stewards found Max at fault at São Paulo for crowding (many here would agree).

The Max fans would be apoplectic in their criticism of the stewards, and making insistence that they are replaced because they are clearly biased.

For balance, the same would be true of Hamilton fans if:
Stewards found Lewis at fault at Silverstone (many here would agree). Same stewards found no fault at Monza (many here would agree). Same stewards found no fault at São Paulo for crowding (many here would agree).
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 13:18 (Ref:4085279)   #423
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A 3x3 grid of punishments applied to at least two offences (crowding off track and causing a collision) is not a ‘limited’ amount of complexity. Even that is 18 separate offence/punishment situations. And they don’t have clear boundaries, since speed and proximity to a wall/barrier are each on a continuum. Instead of subjectivity applied by expert stewards at the time you have created subjectivity in the definitions baked into the rules and then again in deciding which combination of circumstances an incident falls under.

Ironically this apparent objectivity will result in just as much controversy because inflexible application of the grid of punishments will still lead to outcomes that are perceived as too harsh or soft. So then you introduce more criteria to fix those inequities and suddenly your rulebook is a hundred pages long, no-one understands it and it STILL doesn’t cover everything because it is not possible to envisage every combination of track, corner, driver behaviour and outcome.
This complexity is already there just not formalized and transparent leading to avoidable randomness and more offences. If it is not formalized one set of stewards can have a completely different verdict from another. This is already confirmed by Masi in a recent racefans piece:
https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/23/...ppen-incident/
He confirmed the question of when drivers were allowed to force rivals wide would be influenced by the type of run-off at the corner. “You need to look at the whole situation and scenario: weather, run-off et cetera, et cetera,” said Masi.

Obviously you still have debate about who is to blame, but at least you’ll have a clear format promoting consistency.



So the proposal would look like this:


1 Forcing another driver off track.


SAG= Stop-and-Go penalty





2 Causing a collision with a significant impact on the race or significant damage to another driver.


The penalty can be increased if it could be foreseen that there is severe danger or a strong chance for severe damage. For instance when there is a wall on the outside of when the action can be expected to cause a big pile up of cars. Also mitigating circumstances may be taken into consideration. As Anyopenroad states, there are grey area's and stewards are free to weigh them. So it's not completely inflexible, it just provides a consistent framework for the stewards and drivers to work with.




I think with these schemes it is possible to give a reasonably fair and consistent verdict based on any such incidents the last couple of years. All the factors in the scheme can be foreseen by the driver, so can't be considered unforeseen consequences. I challenge anyone to come up with an incident and say the outcome would not be fair based on this scheme.

Brazil:
No mitigating circumstances, a driver is forced off onto the tarmac at mid speed; that's 5s penalty. There is no way around, no championship battle to protect, no just 5s and that's that.

Silverstone:
Predominantly to blame for causing a collision at high speed: Stop and GO penalty.

Norris forcing Perez into the gravel at mid speed at Austria:
Stop and go. Seems harsh but Perez his race was ruined. Better leave racing room next time.


Take for instance that turn 4 in Austria. This will always be the same corner, with the same speed and the same gravel trap on the outside. With this scheme driver will know if I push someone off there, it’s always going to be a stop and go penalty. Not maybe, no definitely. Are you still going to push your competitor off track when you know you will get a standard stop and go penalty for it at that corner? I would say no, the inside driver will behave, because he does not want to take that chance. So even though the penalties will be more severe, less penalties will be given and drivers will lean more towards clean and fair racing.

So this proposal provides a basis for reduced randomness and more transparency while still providing the stewards some freedom to weigh in factors which can't be captured in such a simple scheme. It simply narrows the bandwidth so the drivers know what to reasonably expect and comparable incidents get comparable (not necessarily identical) verdicts.

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Old 24 Nov 2021, 13:36 (Ref:4085287)   #424
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Was there even one investigation in Qatar? There were a few moments where you could question what constitutes track limits, but overall people kept it clean and/ or the stewards are trying to be hands-off as we reach the business end of the season with Max and Lewis. The tricky situation is the bed they make with leniency in Max's Brazil incident - there's a lot of other stuff they can't punish either.
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 13:46 (Ref:4085291)   #425
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I think it was dropped due to perceived bias.

Can you imagine the conversations here if, for example:

Stewards found no fault at Silverstone (many here would agree). Same stewards found Max at fault at Monza (many here would agree). Same stewards found Max at fault at São Paulo for crowding (many here would agree).

The Max fans would be apoplectic in their criticism of the stewards, and making insistence that they are replaced because they are clearly biased.

For balance, the same would be true of Hamilton fans if:
Stewards found Lewis at fault at Silverstone (many here would agree). Same stewards found no fault at Monza (many here would agree). Same stewards found no fault at São Paulo for crowding (many here would agree).

I don’t remember hearing anything of perceived bias, apart from a few ridiculous calls. Monza 2006 springs to mind

The fact is there’s always gonna be some that disagree with a decision, but it should be explained in full why they made it.

Anyway, about Brazil, I think more were outraged nothing was done
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