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Old 4 Feb 2023, 23:54 (Ref:4142747)   #1251
V8 Fireworks
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Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
....except where he says that it's not unusual and that they're working through it in a transparent and collaborative way.
No he said they (Ford Performance) were trying to work through in a transparent and collaborative way, not that Supercars were doing so. Supercars' silence and lack of release of data (downforce and drag vs ride height vs speed, telemetry of acceleration rates) to fans is deafening!

A repeat of the unjustified continual cuts to the 2019 Mustang to the point where it continually killed its tyres in the 2022 season and lost 80% rather than 50% of races is something Ford Performance would naturally seek to avoid.

Quote:
I think similar for aero; I think we showed when we brought current car that we’re racing [Gen2 Mustang], that the people from Ford Performance developing that car are very capable to develop a fantastic race car.
- Mark Rushbrook
https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/02/04...en3-supercars/

Ford Performance were naturally concerned about the making of the unverified changes made to their previous Mustang, and about the unreliability of the data gathered in the so-called VCAT testing when they observed this VCAT process for their new Mustang, and about the observed lack of straight line performance.

Rushbrook even notes frustration at opaque -- not transparent -- Supercars rule makers refusing to allow Ford Performance to use tools (presumably variable timing) to improve engine calibration:
Quote:
There have been points in time where if you look at our engine and some of the advanced technologies on it with what we're able to do with that engine on the road car, we're not able to do the same things in the race car, on the race engine. Some of those knobs and dials have been been turned off. That is the frustrating part, I think, for us.
- Mark Rushbrook
https://www.v8sleuth.com.au/ford-bos...arity-dispute/

Why would Rushbrook note frustration if he was happy with a transparent and respectful process?!

Why would the "knobs and dials" be turned off if the Supercars organisers are fully committed to ensuring paritisation and no disadvantage?!

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 5 Feb 2023 at 00:15.
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Old 5 Feb 2023, 00:43 (Ref:4142757)   #1252
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Addendum:

downforce and drag vs ride height vs speed vs yaw


Obviously they can only get the yaw data by using a wind tunnel with a turntable, not by running up and down a runway. Nor by extracting from mini-sector times on a racetrack, as that is an asinine way of establishing aero data in yaw!

Get this aero map data and release it to fans to show everything is equal -- "how hard can it be".
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Old 6 Feb 2023, 23:06 (Ref:4142927)   #1253
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Does the 888 Chevrolet Racing faction have undue and unreasonable political power?!
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

I understand your point but I really don't believe that 888 have undue influence in the process - the process itself is the issue.

If Supercars want to race different body types/engines against each other than they need to step into the 21st century with their testing process.

The problem now is even if they get the two cars even, because there is doubt in regards to the archaic process it's all to easy to point the finger.

My suspicion is T8 develop their car around VCAT, Ford don't. No point making your car fast/slippery in a way that shows up at VCAT and T8 knows it
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Old 8 Feb 2023, 01:41 (Ref:4143059)   #1254
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Roland's view on how Gen 3 is going and comments being made about it.
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Old 8 Feb 2023, 02:10 (Ref:4143061)   #1255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
Roland's view on how Gen 3 is going and comments being made about it.
Quotes from Roland's column:

Quote:
Having someone from Ford (in America) undermine the work done here so openly and publicly was neither helpful nor constructive.
An untenable and unacceptable sentiment that disrespects the excellence of Ford Performance. Has Ford Performance's demand for extra VCAT testing, with Ford Performance noting unreliable data while observing the VCAT test, been approved or not?!

Quote:
In any event, the resulting VCAT has given us three years of very competitive racing with one championship won by a Ford driver and two by a Holden one. As have many VCAT and engine parity tests in the past. Perfect? Maybe not, but pretty effective for the most part in producing some great racing over the last 20 years plus. And done within the means of this country.
It sounds like "NIMBY" syndrome...

Quote:
The sensible way to approach this is to get three race meetings under the belt (Newcastle, the AGP and Perth – all different tracks and environments) and then examine the real time data.
Overlooking that wind tunnel testing at various ride heights and yaw angles would produce reliable data without the variables of variable ambient wind, tyres and suspension tuning.

Quote:
Using the platform of an exciting F1 announcement to air Supercars issues in public only serves to undermine our sport as a whole and is the last thing that most sponsors, for instance, would want to hear or read about.
This seems to overlook Roland's own anti-Mustang Gen 2 publicity campaign at the 2019 Adelaide 500 and 2019 Australian Grand Prix support meeting?!
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Old 8 Feb 2023, 02:33 (Ref:4143063)   #1256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
Roland's view on how Gen 3 is going and comments being made about it.
TIL pumping the brakes is enough to trick VCAT! Sounds like quite an advanced and rigorous testing procedure....
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Old 8 Feb 2023, 21:08 (Ref:4143191)   #1257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Quotes from Roland's column:

The sensible way to approach this is to get three race meetings under the belt (Newcastle, the AGP and Perth – all different tracks and environments) and then examine the real time data.
So in other words, let the Chev get three races in front before any parity is looked at.

Supercars has alot to answer for through this whole process.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 03:31 (Ref:4143217)   #1258
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So in other words, let the Chev get three races in front before any parity is looked at.

Supercars has alot to answer for through this whole process.
If the Ford wins the first three races ?
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 03:36 (Ref:4143219)   #1259
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If the Ford wins the first three races ?
There will be just as much sooking from "chev". That's the problem here, unless both models win an equal amount of races, someone will just use parity as an excuse and without data as evidence to the contrary, the punters might believe them.

Scary when you think no one is in the same class as SVG or T8, so when they go on a roll, and they will, be prepared for the complaining.

Supercars need to release data that will contradict any parity complaints (they won't)
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 08:25 (Ref:4143236)   #1260
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Supercars need to release data that will contradict any parity complaints (they won't)
Back in the day, Supercars used to share all vcat testing data with all teams - assume that still happens but can't be 100%.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 10:14 (Ref:4143244)   #1261
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post

This seems to overlook Roland's own anti-Mustang Gen 2 publicity campaign at the 2019 Adelaide 500 and 2019 Australian Grand Prix support meeting?!
The story that Roland told about the VCAT testing in Jan 2020 would seem to vindicate those complaints.

I'd find it hard to argue against the job Supercars has done on parity over the past 15 years. No manufacturer has dominated. Yes, drivers have dominated (Whincup, McLaughlin, van Gis) at various times, but a variety of teams have always been challenging.

Just like the massive adavantage 888 were about to have from testing first, maybe we all shouldn't jump to the conclusion that Supercars are seeking to alienate half of its fans by screwing a manufacturer.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 22:37 (Ref:4143325)   #1262
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Are we anticipating the WAU Camaros might show up with Red Bull branding on them somewhere?
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 02:54 (Ref:4143335)   #1263
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Overlooking that wind tunnel testing at various ride heights and yaw angles would produce reliable data without the variables of variable ambient wind, tyres and suspension tuning.
Tim Edwards and Adrian Burgess both worked in F1 teams. If you hadn't noticed, Tim Edwards works for a Ford team.

What are your credentials for making such a blanket statement?

Rushbrook's whinging and politicking after what he and Penske did to the competition is appalling.
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 03:11 (Ref:4143336)   #1264
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Tim Edwards and Adrian Burgess both worked in F1 teams. If you hadn't noticed, Tim Edwards works for a Ford team.

What are your credentials for making such a blanket statement?

Rushbrook's whinging and politicking after what he and Penske did to the competition is appalling.
Seriously?

Penske just did what T8 have always done, except they did a better job and were lucky to have a generational talent steering.

Tim Edwards is ensconced in Supercars (part of the commision etc). He only complains about things like "my poor driver got turned" etc. Hasn't got guts to speak up when matters
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 04:43 (Ref:4143342)   #1265
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Rushbrook's whinging and politicking after what he and Penske did to the competition is appalling.
Horrible take!
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 14:43 (Ref:4143381)   #1266
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Have to say the Mustang looks far better on track than the Camaro, it actually looks like a proper race car.
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Old 11 Feb 2023, 06:18 (Ref:4143431)   #1267
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Penske just did what T8 have always done, except they did a better job and were lucky to have a generational talent steering.
Penske and Ford destroyed the rule book and competition deliberately via an arms race, precisely the kind of thing Penske has done elsewhere. It was not equalised until mid-2019, giving Ford an absolute free kick that year.

Scotty Mac undoubtedly special, but Cam Waters came 2nd in 2020 after the adjustments, proving the car was absolutely competitive and still was until the end of 2022.

If you can't see that, you are literally blind.
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Old 11 Feb 2023, 10:45 (Ref:4143449)   #1268
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So... whats the deal over at Team18?

One car without a full complement of stickers
A second with a round by round branding proposition for the year..

Must be some serious money in forklifts...
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Old 11 Feb 2023, 14:05 (Ref:4143463)   #1269
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Penske and Ford destroyed the rule book and competition deliberately via an arms race, precisely the kind of thing Penske has done elsewhere.
Again this is a horrible take and an undue sleight on a well-engineered 2019 Mustang which was entirely within the letter of the rules.

...as were the Penske Mercedes pushrod Indy 500 engines too for that matter!

Randomly adding front splitter extensions and bootlid Gurney to the rival Commodore (and removing endplate area from the Mustang) without VCAT testing is by comparison, not within the letter of the rules, where the official VCAT showed the cars already matching in downforce and drag at the required test parameters.

Now, Ford Performance dispute however the parity of results found in 2023 VCAT testing and straight line data. This is a serious concern indeed!
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Old 12 Feb 2023, 01:24 (Ref:4143492)   #1270
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Again this is a horrible take and an undue sleight on a well-engineered 2019 Mustang which was entirely within the letter of the rules.
Given the attempted manipulation of the Jan 2020 VCAT testing by Penske DJR/Ford, it would throw into question the team's practices that saw the 2019 car signed off.
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Old 12 Feb 2023, 02:14 (Ref:4143494)   #1271
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Have to say, All the Camaros look insance but Jack Smiths car looks outstanding
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Old 12 Feb 2023, 03:40 (Ref:4143496)   #1272
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Given the attempted manipulation of the Jan 2020 VCAT testing by Penske DJR/Ford, it would throw into question the team's practices that saw the 2019 car signed off.
Also not the first time Scott Mc had VCAT shenanigans as he later has admitted from GRM days.
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Old 12 Feb 2023, 06:43 (Ref:4143501)   #1273
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If the Ford wins the first three races ?
Why did the Chevs crash or break down?
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Old 12 Feb 2023, 21:50 (Ref:4143541)   #1274
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No 888 test this week either apparently..

What’s going on?

Where are the media, on the lookout for a scoop?!
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Old 13 Feb 2023, 22:26 (Ref:4143632)   #1275
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Looking at all the galleries of the new cars, I notice a Big difference to the front wings on the cars. Why do the Camaros have end plates on the front wings, and the Mustangs dont?
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