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2 Jun 2000, 15:15 (Ref:6430) | #1 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 211
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Take a look at the www.nemesisnxt.com site and you'll see how a small and talented team can build as much carbon fiber structure and wings as you would find in an Indy car but for hardly a tenth the price of an IRL car.
There are five basic progressions in composite construction. 1. Wet layups. 2. Wet layups with vacuum bagging. 3. Prepregs. 4. Prepregs with vacuum bagging. 5. Prepregs with an autoclave. With each progression, you're not increasing the absolute strength so much as you're increasing the strength to weight ratio by lowering the resin to cloth ratio. (On a side note, given that an autoclave operates at the same temperatures as a home kitchen oven and at the same pressures as a home water heater there is no reason why an inventive person could not build an autoclave in their garage or home workshop.) In every other industry where they've been used (boats, kit planes, replica kit cars, etc), composites have DECREASED both manufacturing costs and prices to the consumer. How in Indy cars composite construction has come to symbolize the ultimate in expense is a complete mystery to me. The bottom line? An expert composites engineer could probably design a safe Indy car tub that people could fabricate from scratch in their own garage. |
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2 Jun 2000, 18:32 (Ref:6431) | #2 | ||
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Join Date: Sep 1998
Posts: 2,762
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I can answer some of that. I design and build stamping dies and aluminum molds and many people do not understand what goes into the work itself. They cannot understand that a simple mold for a hubseal for a semi-truck costs US$45,000. The material for the entire die probably only cost US$4000, all of the rest goes into the design and labor of building the die. All of the die is built using equipment that ranges in price from US$15,000 to $300,000 and they represent a lot of overhead as well as the pay for the skilled worker, usually in the US$12.00 to US$18.00 dollar an hour range. Our shop rate is $US50.00 an hour for die work, and it doesn't take long for the hours to add up when the tolerances are very close and everything must have a ground surface and polished to a certain micro-finish. Imagine how many hours it would take to polish a piece of steel that has been heatreated to a mirror finish by hand, when you are using jeweler's rouge for the final rub out. I have seen molds require over 80 man hours to polish it alone. That doesn't include the building of it as well.
For every part of the race car you see made in carbon fiber, there is a buck or pattern that it is layed up in. These require construction and a new one is usually requred if the parts are to be modified like we see commonly done on race cars all the time. New engine covers, new wings, etc, all require a new pattern or the modification of the original one. The machined bits of the car are all made from billet pieces of material, meaning a solid piece of steel/aluminum/titanium/magnesium, and the pieces that are cut away are scrapped. These parts are not molded and require multi-axis machining centers that cost up to US$1 million dollars. I know that CART/IRL/F1 front uprights are all cut from billet material on a Wire EDM machine like the ones I run. These machines are very expensive to own and operate. But they also can hold 0.0003 of an inch tolerance and do not impart stress on the component. Then all of the parts are heat treated or stress relieved and then cryo-treated for wear and structural integrity. After all of this is done, every part is x-rayed and magnafluxed for cracks and interior defects. Then the car is assembled and shipped to the teams as a roller chassis, which includes the gearbox and various kits for road course and oval setups. Also, during the season, the chassis manufacturers are constantly working with the teams to upgrade the chassis and making evolutionary bits as per their contract with the team. Research and development time is very expensive, along with wind tunnel time, and computational fluid dynamics time on supercomputers. There are so many hours involved in building and optimizing the chassis, that is why the manufacturers spend the entire season working on next year's chassis, or they couldn't get it done in time. Another aspect is the electronic engine management suite and telemetry pots required to monitor the 30 or more channels of info. The cost of custom written software and specially tailored measuring potentiometers and other sending units can get astronomical as well. Electronic components only get cheap when you can make them in million quantites, not in tens. Managing an engine that spools beyond 14,000rpm cannot be a cheap task at all. I checked out the sight you mentioned and they do build a nice aricraft, but it is a much simpler device than a racecar, and is made up of quite a few less pieces than a modern open-wheel race car. That doesn't mean it isn't as good, because their aircraft are multiple world champions. I would love to be one of the guys who builds race cars, to be able to say that my car was the one that won the championship. The hours and hours that the manufacturers and teams put into honing the race car to its finest performance probably requires more dedication than any of us realize. |
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3 Jun 2000, 02:44 (Ref:6432) | #3 | ||
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3 Jun 2000, 15:05 (Ref:6433) | #4 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 211
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Except that manufacturers (such as Giles) of carbon fiber kit planes are delivering kits for about a TENTH the price of a CART Reynard kit and complete ready-to-fly airplanes for less than HALF the price of an IRL G-Force kit. And that's with production runs no bigger than what you're seeing for CART/IRL cars.
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3 Jun 2000, 15:46 (Ref:6434) | #5 | ||
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 3,797
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The bottom line?
The way one single manufacturer's aeroplanes keep getting cited as examples... ...a more cynical man than myself might start wondering if these repeated threads are being used as some sort of advertising. I must say, if I had a unique, and well built small aeroplane to sell, and a modest advertising budget, I am sure I would be interested in contacting the owners of this forum and buying an advertising banner for a surprisingly small fee. Which would negate any questions that the cynical might raise over the validity of certain topics. |
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4 Jun 2000, 00:29 (Ref:6435) | #6 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 9,208
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Poor Franklin...there there, there there..
You poor fella, your eyesight has left you, there there, there there...what a terrible thing... I might get a copy of what has been typed out in this thread and others, and i might send it over to you in braille... Seriously, i am so sorry...what a great shame... [OPEN YA EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Franklin: "Oh i can now read the other posts in this thread...amazing!")] [This message has been edited by Crash Test (edited 04 June 2000).] |
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5 Jun 2000, 14:37 (Ref:6436) | #7 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 211
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"...a more cynical man than myself might start wondering if these repeated threads are being used as some sort of advertising." Yes, and a more cynical man would be making a complete fool of himself.
And when defending the price of Reynard, Lola, G-Force, etc car kits it is irrelevant to include engine development costs since Reynard, Lola, G-Force, etc are not in the business of selling Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, etc engines. Below are some vehicles with large composite structures that provide informative contrasts to Reynard, Lola, etc kit prices. (See www.viper-aircraft.com) "So What's It Going to Cost? ViperJet™ Kit Pricing: Kit A: Fuselage, Vertical Stab, Rudder, Horizontal Stab, Elevators & Associated Hardware. $57,900 Kit B: Wings, Spars, Ailerons, Flaps, Landing Gear & Associated Hardware. $49,400 Kit C: Canopy, Latches, Seats, Quadrants & other finishing hardware .$27,600 Total cost of ViperJet Kit:$134,900 Deposit Required: A 10% deposit is required ($13,490) to hold a serial number position for a ViperJet™ kit. This deposit is applied against total price or to last sub kit C. Note: This introductory price will be for the first 10 ViperJet Kits only. Note** The ViperJet™ kit comes with our “Excel Build”™ Option standard, which will save over 800 hours of build time. Excel Build Airframe include the following: Jigged fuselage, Fuselage bulkheads installed, vertical spars installed, one side vertical skin installed, vertical stab ribs installed, Top fuselage skins bonded, spar box installed, Wing spars bonded, wing ribs installed, horizontal stab spars bonded, horizontal stab ribs installed, ailerons closed, flaps closed, rudder closed, elevators closed. All ViperJet™ structural airframe components are manufactured with carbon fiber materials. For further information call Viper Aircraft Corporation" (For the one below see www.twinjet.com) "Kit Pricing Basic Kit Effective January 2000 Air Frame with pressurization All fiberglass airframe parts, flight controls, landing gear. $179,500 Engines ( 2 modified T-58 turbojets w/750 lb. thrust) Includes 35-Amp alternator, alternator controller, and brackets Note: Engine prices may vary subject to availability $110,000 Options Fast Build Fuselage Major fuselage, internal bulkheads, and vertical tail members aligned and glassed. $9,800 Fast Build Inboard Wing Spar, ribs, and bottom skin glassed, spar-fuse attachment bolt holes aligned and drilled. $6,500 Fast Build Outboard Wing Spar, ribs, and bottom skin glassed, spar-spar attachment bolt holes aligned and drilled. $8,500 Wing Fuel Cell Installation Installation of fuel cell interconnect hose fittings and sealing of fuel cells $3,500 Fuselage Fuel Cell Installation Installation of fuel fittings, internal bulkheads, and sealing of fuel cells $2,500 Fast Build Horizontal Tail Spar, ribs and bottom skin glassed, hinges aligned and drilled. $4,000 Fast Build Ailerons Spar, ribs and bottom skin glassed, hinges aligned and drilled $1,000 Fast Build Elevators Spar, ribs and bottom skin glassed, hinges aligned and drilled $1,000 Landing Gear Setup Alignment and installation of main and nose gear legs and retract trunnion mounts. $4,500 Heated windshield TBD Anti-icing System - wings, tail, engine inlets $32,000 Speed Brakes Synchronized, electrically operated $3,500 Payment Terms Airframe Deposit $10,000 Fuselage Kit $60,000 Wing Kit $60,000 Systems Kit $24,500 Balance $25,000 Engine Deposit (month 6) $40,000 Engine Payment (month 8) $70,000 Above sub-kits can be ordered as a complete package and all options are paid for at the time of sub-kit purchase. Above prices do not include any applicable taxes, crating, and transportation charges. Engines require four months to rebuild and test. Customers not accepting engines when ready for shipment are subject to a 25% restocking fee." [This message has been edited by Franklin (edited 05 June 2000).] |
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5 Jun 2000, 22:51 (Ref:15723) | #8 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 9,208
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That's it, im convinced, im going to buy my own ViperJet™ to race in the Cart championship. I think my ViperJet™ will be incredibly fast because ViperJet™ are so cheap compared to the rest of the field. I could crash my ViperJet™ but still have enough money in the bank to buy several more ViperJet™ to replace it. Yay ViperJet™!
ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ ViperJet™ Now if Franklin can promote ViperJet™, so can i!! No this is not Spam, this is legit... |
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6 Jun 2000, 06:09 (Ref:15776) | #9 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 33
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KC,
You did a wonderful job debunking Franklin's dribble. He'll never understand, though. Maybe CART should just abandon wheels, walls, and asphalt. Invert the wings and fly! That would solve all of your hangups with racing right, FrankLiff? |
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6 Jun 2000, 13:22 (Ref:15817) | #10 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 1998
Posts: 2,762
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Franklin has a valid question. I was not debunking him in any way. I am involved in manufacturing and deal with people every day from outside the manufacturing industry. Most people have no idea what all goes on just to make the most simplest items we use every day. The cost of tooling, fixtures, inspection, packaging, and shipping are all part of what goes on to get an item from a raw material state to ready to sell. If you have never been exposed to this its easy to overlook.
There are similarities in what takes place to make the Nemesis racing plane and a CART chassis. I was only offering up some reasons why there is such a price difference. |
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6 Jun 2000, 18:28 (Ref:15884) | #11 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 211
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And by the way, Lizzerd, dribble is NOT A NOUN.
Or did you mean to imply I'm a basketball player? |
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6 Jun 2000, 18:49 (Ref:15887) | #12 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 211
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The posting in quotes below is from "Murph" on Seventhgear. To put these prices into perspective, a Giles G-200 airplane kit is $44,000 (the Giles G-200 is a single-seater
American-made all-carbon-fiber airplane built for world-class aerobatic competition). The factory will deliver you a flight-ready G-200 for $120,000. "murph Member posted 04-03-2000 11:04 AM ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There's a difference between "parts" and a "kit". The basic champ car chassis goes for about $600,000. A superspeedway "kit" (specialized wings, undertray, etc) does indeed run about $150,000. Now, replacement parts cost less, about $15K is what I hear for a nose wing for example. And yes, these prices do indeed include NRE costs. The production run is so small that the costs absorbed pass on to the customers in a big way. Considering Lola and Reynard are for-profit enterprises, it's not surprising. They don't "write off" any of their costs to advertising the way the engine manufacturers do. (For example, an engine lease for a season costs the teams about $2Million per car, but the engine manufacturer is burning about $8M-$10M per car, the difference is written off as "promotion.")" [Edited by Franklin on 6th June 2000 at 19:51] |
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7 Jun 2000, 19:00 (Ref:16149) | #13 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 276
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Perhaps when we all start buying Reynards and Lolas at our local dealer they too can cut costs through advertising.
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9 Jun 2000, 14:22 (Ref:16446) | #15 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 731
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I got my carbon fiber frameset (Trek, like Lance's) for $900 and built up my TT bike. What does this have to do with CART/IRL chassis costs and production. Nothing but neither does that blatant VIPER plane ADVERTISEMENT!!!
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9 Jun 2000, 20:14 (Ref:16488) | #16 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 211
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Hey, Sherlock -- excuse me, Slicktoast -- if you have any delusions of becoming a detective don't give up your day job.
So far I've mentioned THREE different airplanes with the FIRST one I mentioned being A NON-COMMERICALLY MANUFACTURED BUILT-FROM-SCRATCH HOMEBUILT. |
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9 Jun 2000, 22:45 (Ref:16504) | #17 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 9,208
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Let me just recap the last 2 posts:
"What does this have to do with CART/IRL chassis costs and production. Nothing but neither does that blatant VIPER plane ADVERTISEMENT!!!" "Hey, Sherlock -- excuse me, Slicktoast -- if you have any delusions of becoming a detective don't give up your day job. So far I've mentioned THREE different airplanes with the FIRST one I mentioned being A NON-COMMERICALLY MANUFACTURED BUILT-FROM-SCRATCH HOMEBUILT." Good one Franklin, champion effort that!! |
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