Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 9 May 2013, 11:57 (Ref:3244795)   #1
sizzle
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Darwin
Posts: 3,531
sizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Time to take track limits seriously

About time this was put in the spotlight.

For those without a subscription
snip
Lewis Hamilton has brought one such unintended consequence into sharp focus. In an interview published this week by the Daily Mail, Hamilton complained drivers no longer pay the price for exceeding the limits of the track.

"In [Ayrton] Senna's day, if he went one foot over that kerb, it would be grass and he would spin and be penalised," said Hamilton. "He would be right on the limit, rather than over the limit and I respect that style of driving more.

"Now you can go beyond and get back because modern tracks have run-off areas. They used to be gravel. Hit that and your car was damaged or stuck. Now you can push beyond, go wide and come back on.

This has been a pet hate of mine for some time.
sizzle is offline  
Quote
Old 9 May 2013, 12:45 (Ref:3244817)   #2
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
Bernie has always been anxious to have all of the main protagonists in the race at all times. Lewis himself may well have wanted the great God of tarmac to have come to his aid on several occasions, not least China 07, where he managed to find the only bit of gravel on the entire circuit.
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 9 May 2013, 14:51 (Ref:3244857)   #3
Bononi
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Bononi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location:
Deep in the Chaos Nation's countryside
Posts: 21,606
Bononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Sometime in the future it will be like a videogame, no damage at all.
Bononi is offline  
__________________
Show me a man who won't give it to his woman
An' I'll show you somebody who will
Quote
Old 9 May 2013, 15:16 (Ref:3244865)   #4
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,316
Sodemo has a real shot at the championship!Sodemo has a real shot at the championship!Sodemo has a real shot at the championship!Sodemo has a real shot at the championship!Sodemo has a real shot at the championship!
I'm surprised he has only just spotted it, because this disease started to spread around 2002/2003. Whilst tarmac run off is good in certain situations, it is a big let off for drivers who stray slightly wide. It also doesn't stop cars with flat tyres, or cars with suspension failure, see the WTCC Hungary 2013 race for that.

Mt Fuji is perhaps the biggest causality of this trend. A once great classic venue, totally ruined by modern safety standards and acres of tarmac run off. If there is a need for this type of run off, then in my view there needs to be a minimum of a 3 metre band of grass that separates the race track area, to the tarmac run off. And it can't be grasscrete or kerbs, or green grippy tarmac, it needs to be grass (or Sand if its Bahrain).
Sodemo is offline  
Quote
Old 9 May 2013, 15:54 (Ref:3244875)   #5
jsTrecu
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 744
jsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Alonso using run offs to gain speed trying to overtake Petrov in Abu Dhabi 2010 was another clear example that showed some flaws in the conception.
jsTrecu is offline  
Quote
Old 9 May 2013, 15:59 (Ref:3244876)   #6
bella
Race Official
Veteran
 
bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
France
Posts: 16,760
bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
i'm sure he has spotted it some time before but it has proliferated in the past few years what with the new circuits in abu dhabi, india, austin, etc coming online. others like spa have also been ruined in the past 2-3 years, just in the time lewis has been in f1.

i do agree with him. and i disagree with bernie's notion that marbot mentioned. sorry, but the key part of being a title protagonist is learning not to throw it off and make silly mistakes.
bella is offline  
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides
Quote
Old 9 May 2013, 18:09 (Ref:3244927)   #7
paddy
Veteran
 
paddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
England
Nottingham
Posts: 633
paddy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridpaddy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It's my main bug bear with modern circuits. The drivers I respected kept it on the island whilst still driving on the limit. Mistakes were punished and that made the racing better in my view. MS has been the biggest culprit in recent years as he constantly used run off areas during practice sessions to find the limit. I'm not sure he'd have done that a few years ago. At the top level it's more of a gymkhana than motor racing. It's sometimes difficult to tell where the actual track is.
paddy is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 09:47 (Ref:3245244)   #8
bella
Race Official
Veteran
 
bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
France
Posts: 16,760
bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
that's why i respect drivers who can make it work around monaco. if they can learn that place without crossing the limits and going all reliant robin then they're damn good. as a fan looking for a dramatic race it usually comes up a bit short but it's one of the only races where you can let that go and actually watch each car and driver as individuals rather than racing to be the first to the flag.
bella is offline  
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 10:01 (Ref:3245254)   #9
Greem
Veteran
 
Greem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
United Kingdom
Posts: 5,351
Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!
I bet monitoring and reporting the four-wheels-off rule doesn't get mentioned in the officials' briefing at Monaco
Greem is online now  
__________________
Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.
When they realise you have, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes.
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 10:17 (Ref:3245261)   #10
bella
Race Official
Veteran
 
bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
France
Posts: 16,760
bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
i think "four wheels off" might have a more literal meaning there though, and be worthy of a trophy rather than the hairdryer treatment
bella is offline  
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 11:14 (Ref:3245296)   #11
Knowlesy
20KPINAL
 
Knowlesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 29,853
Knowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
I totally agree with Hamilton and I have always had the same thought on the issue.

Remember that "amazing, sensational" battle between Kubica and Massa at Fuji one year that was fought entirely on the run-off areas? Cringeworthy. Stay between the white lines and use your skill.

The Marbot school of thought is complete nonsense, races didn't used to end with three quarters of the field beached in the gravel ffs.
Knowlesy is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 11:19 (Ref:3245299)   #12
frostie
Ten-Tenths Photo Of The Year Winner 2013
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Ireland
Dundalk
Posts: 461
frostie is going for a new world record!frostie is going for a new world record!frostie is going for a new world record!frostie is going for a new world record!frostie is going for a new world record!frostie is going for a new world record!frostie is going for a new world record!frostie is going for a new world record!
Tarmac run offs were a great solution to an advertising question more so than a safety question. It's great to be able to put a big ad on the run offs instead of painting a logo on the grass but in terms of racing I hate them as it seems does pretty much everyone else.

None of us want to see a situation where gravel traps increase the safety risks but as long as they are properly constructed there shouldnt be a safety concern. The use of tarmac run offs obviously encourages drivers to push beyond the bounds of the track and it turns difficult corners into much easier ones because you can always bail out and take to the run off.

Also as far as safety is concerned gravel traps are much more preferable to bike racers instead of crashing onto tarmac.
frostie is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 12:10 (Ref:3245338)   #13
Bononi
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Bononi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location:
Deep in the Chaos Nation's countryside
Posts: 21,606
Bononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowlesy View Post
I totally agree with Hamilton and I have always had the same thought on the issue.

Remember that "amazing, sensational" battle between Kubica and Massa at Fuji one year that was fought entirely on the run-off areas? Cringeworthy. Stay between the white lines and use your skill.

The Marbot school of thought is complete nonsense, races didn't used to end with three quarters of the field beached in the gravel ffs.
Totally agree.
Bononi is offline  
__________________
Show me a man who won't give it to his woman
An' I'll show you somebody who will
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 12:14 (Ref:3245340)   #14
Paradise City
Veteran
 
Paradise City's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Bhutan
Dublin
Posts: 4,320
Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!
The teams like the tarmac run-off. It saves them money and they can use safety as an excuse. Hard to see them rolling back on it.
Paradise City is offline  
__________________
If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse.
-Henry Ford
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 12:28 (Ref:3245342)   #15
Greem
Veteran
 
Greem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
United Kingdom
Posts: 5,351
Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!
There's already a rule related to exceeding (or "respecting") the track limits.

I'd say something about consistency of application of the rule, but applying it at all would be a start.
Greem is online now  
__________________
Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.
When they realise you have, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes.
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 12:47 (Ref:3245344)   #16
stripedcat
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,223
stripedcat should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridstripedcat should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I don't that circuits do have run-off areas - as this does give greater safety and allow cars to rejoin the race. However, if a car goes off then it does have to take some penalty for going off. The run-offs shouldn't be abused for cutting corners and overtaking on. Having lower grip surfaces on them maybe helps - although that might negate some of the safety aspects of them.

I do take a lot of the concerns from here that recently the run-off areas have been abused some what in both qualifying and the races.

This does make you respect the circuits like Monaco and Canada a bit more.
stripedcat is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 20:37 (Ref:3245425)   #17
W.A Trichlorostyrene
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 637
W.A Trichlorostyrene should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greem View Post
I bet monitoring and reporting the four-wheels-off rule doesn't get mentioned in the officials' briefing at Monaco
In fact I am pretty sure it does. It's not rare to see people overshooting the Nouvelle Chicane, and also people cutting Ste Devote on lap 1 has been a massive can of worm recently.
W.A Trichlorostyrene is offline  
Quote
Old 11 May 2013, 02:00 (Ref:3245531)   #18
Nicholosophy
Veteran
 
Nicholosophy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Australia
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,120
Nicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridNicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridNicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I was watching the WEC last weekend and saw quite a few stop-go penalties handed out for exceeding the track limits. F1 should do this too. Pinacle of motorsport they say...
Nicholosophy is offline  
Quote
Old 11 May 2013, 07:38 (Ref:3245582)   #19
IceMan_PJN
Racer
 
IceMan_PJN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
United States
Ohio
Posts: 317
IceMan_PJN has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bononi View Post
Sometime in the future it will be like a videogame, no damage at all.
I guess if it all became Gran Turismo. Forza Motorsport and Codemasters' F1 games have damage.
IceMan_PJN is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2013 MSA Proposed Rule Change "Track Limits" vector-pat National & International Single Seaters 75 5 Jan 2013 08:08
Respecting Track Limits The SpeCTator Touring Car Racing 8 3 Jun 2012 14:20
Regulation (14.5?) Track Limits - Silv' Int' McMuttley Racers Forum 18 6 Jun 2011 16:43
Bathurst 1000 about time - booze limits... fomoco Australasian Touring Cars. 24 12 Sep 2008 05:34
Time on track aethan Track Day Forum 4 13 May 2004 14:18


All times are GMT. The time now is 16:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.