McLaren M 4A & 4B

[TM Lee]

Hi all,
I'm looking for some history for my Mclaren M4A Cassis number 200-13F.
I know it was an F-2 "Chequered Flag" car but I don't know who drove the car or what races it competed in.
Any one out there with this type of information?
Thanks for the help!

[David McKinney]

My records give 200-20 and 200-22 as numbers of the Chequered Flag F2 cars, but I don't have a note of the number of their F3 car(s)

[Rob29]

F3 cars were driven by Mike Walker & Ian Ashley in 1968.I have photos but no chassis numbers.Not sure when either Autosport or MN started printing the serial nos,but I no longer have copies back that far anyway.My technical knowledge is not up to much,but I guess these cars could be converted F2/F3/FA simply by changing the engine? Certainly happened with Brabhams,and a Shannon started life as an F1 and later ran in F3!

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Rob29

F3 cars were driven by Mike Walker & Ian Ashley in 1968.I have photos but no chassis numbers.Not sure when either Autosport or MN started printing the serial nos,but I no longer have copies back that far anyway.My technical knowledge is not up to much,but I guess these cars could be converted F2/F3/FA simply by changing the engine? Certainly happened with Brabhams,and a Shannon started life as an F1 and later ran in F3!

Do you have any photos of the Scalextric sponsored cars?
I think they only sponsored the F3 cars?

As a former Scalextric collector (around 2,000 different cars, prior to becoming the Shannon owner!) I've always been interested in the Chequered Flag Scalextric M4s which Scalextric modelled as the Team Car, in slightly larger scale than usual to accomodate the largest motor they had!

A friend reported seeing the bodywork somewhere but could never remember where it was.........

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Do you have any photos of the Scalextric sponsored cars?
I think they only sponsored the F3 cars?

As a former Scalextric collector (around 2,000 different cars, prior to becoming the Shannon owner!) I've always been interested in the Chequered Flag Scalextric M4s which Scalextric modelled as the Team Car, in slightly larger scale than usual to accomodate the largest motor they had!

A friend reported seeing the bodywork somewhere but could never remember where it was.........

Think I have at least I paddock shot Peter.Only had an instamatic in those days! Yes,only the F3 team was sponsored by Scalextric,I don't remember them making a model of the M4A,but I had Airfix slot cars and had by then passed them on to my younger brother,who went on to collect some trophies at slot car racing!

[Rob29]

Sorry only photo I have is not much use.Another 2 were just of the drivers. British GP meeting 1968.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Rob, nice shot of Ian Ashley in the M4A. F3 and F2 cars must have been identical except for the engine/gearbox?

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Rob, nice shot of Ian Ashley in the M4A. F3 and F2 cars must have been identical except for the engine/gearbox?

Nice picture Rob.

Apart from engine & gearbox, F2 cars might have had different: wheels; brakes; fuel tanks & engine covers - as far as I remember those are the differences between BT15 & BT16 Brabhams, which must be similar?

If races in one series were far less frequent than the other, converting the cars could have been viable - and you could run it in F3 with some of the F2 components without a huge weight penalty.

I've never heard of an M4 F3 car being for sale, they are always F2s - of course that doesn't mean there aren't any around but it does suggest that upgrading them is an option.

[John Turner]

I have to say that I am rather confused by this old thread. I was recently at Cadwell Park where I saw David Caplowe's M4A. I was given to understand that there were only 2 M4As built, these being the works cars. I was advised that the customer cars were M4Bs. Have I been informed incorrectly?

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by John Turner

I was given to understand that there were only 2 M4As built, these being the works cars. I was advised that the customer cars were M4Bs. Have I been informed incorrectly?

I think you probably have
It would, I think, be correct to say that McLaren built only two M4As. Later cars with 200 c/no prefixes were built by Trojan but still called M4As

[John Turner]

Ah, thanks, David; so 2 original cars with Mclaren plates then? I think Caplowes car was M4A/2. Does that make sense?

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Ah, thanks, David; so 2 original cars with Mclaren plates then? I think Caplowes car was M4A/2. Does that make sense?

What is this - a chatroom?
Yes, from memory M4A/1 was the works car driven by Bruce, and M4A/2 the John Coombs one which Courage raced. And - without checking - I'm pretty sure Coplowe's car is the ex-Courage

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by David McKinney

What is this - a chatroom?

Just a coincidence, but since you were here, I knew you would have the answer, if I asked!

I've got another question now! Were there any other differences between the two original cars, and those built by Trojan (apart from the chassis nos, that is!)?

PS, Yes, sorry, Coplowe! (typo!)

[David McKinney]

I'll have to leave someone else to answer that question, though I'm sure there would have been identifiable differences

[fangio]

I used to own M4A-2 about 10/12 years ago.
Had to sell it because I just couldn't fit in the car; it went through a Coys sale where they managed to sell it a stupid low price....
Wasn't there to control it, my fault.

[horizon]

Hello All,
First time user :
Is there, or has there been a chassis list on the McLaren M4A's , B's and F3
Pictures??
I have a car in the States. The Last owner purhased the car from Skeeter McKitterick in LA in 1970/71. It was disassembled about that time and put back togeather in The late 90's.
I was told it ran in Formula B/c with an Auto delta Alfa engine and was may be painted Red.
anybody remember the car ? Who did Skeeter get the car from?



Thank you
Tony

[Chris Townsend]

Welcome Tony and a good point, we've rather overlooked McLarens on this forum, especially the M4
Do you have a chassis number for your car?

I have a lot of gaps in my records but here's a start

Two cars built by McLaren themselves
M4A-1 Works F2 car 1967
M4A-2 John Coombs for Piers Courage 1967 by 1970-71 with Len Goodwin NZ

Trojan construction

200-01 to 200-08 unknown
200-09E late 67 Jim Palmer then to John Osborne. 1969 Burke for Macrow and Costanzo, 1971 Alfredo Costanzo
200-10E not known
200-11E Lythgoe: Alan Rollinson 1967, Robs Lamplough
200-12E not known
200-13E not known
200-14E Graeme Lawrence [Tasman series]
200-15F 1968: Chequered Flag; 1969 Chuck Kirkbride (FB; USA) retained to 1972
200-16F 1968: Chequered Flag F3 car
200-17F 1968: Ford France F2: Schlesser, spare car
200-18F 1968: Ford France F2: Schlesser
200-19F 1968: Ford France F2: Ligier
200-20F 1968: Chequered Flag F2: Widdows
200-21F 1968: Chequered Flag F3 car I think, this or other F3 car sold to Bill Stone 1969
200-22F 1968: Chequered Flag F2 Lawrence
200-23 to 200-26 unknown
200-27B 1968: Chuck Dietrich FB

Unknown FB cars in 1968:
Brian Robertson, retained 1969
Martin Sellars
Henry Hester

Unknown FB/F2 cars in 1969
Massoneri [French hillclimbs presume ex Ford France car]
Dow Byers [LA area retained 1970]
Dick Drexler [California retained to 1972 at least]

Unknown FB cars 1970
Max Callicott retained to 1973 at least
Phil Lester [Van Nuys CA, with Alfa engine]
R.Lloyd [LA]

Chris

[Bryan Miller]

Chris,

After the Tasman M4A-2 was sold to Niel Allen and logbook applied for with CAMS 27-3-1968 , FVA eng. no. 7006. Niel ran this car and an article in Racing Car News June 1968 advises a new chassis[ tub] was to be installed .
This car was raced untill the massive accident which left the eng. and box in one place and Niel still strapped into the rest .
The rest of the following is being persued by myself at the moment for clarification.

The M4A and an M4C were sold by N.E.Allen [ Automotive Industries] Pty Ltd. and the M4A went to Pat Burke Racing
on 29th Jan 1970. and Len Goodwin of Australia , not N.Z. ,ran the car before , I think ,Warwick Brown had a few runs in it.

Can't remember seeing car in action again with anybody , and car re-surfaced when purchased back from ???, by Modena Collection [ Pat Burke ] , I have just finished speaking to Peter Molloy who looked after the car in period and rebuilt it in the late 1980's , he can't remember if they bought it back or had never sold it.

When financial stress overcame the Pat Burke empire the car was consigned to auction at Monaco circa 1990 , never seen again. The car sold still retained chassis plate , or transferred to newer components , Peter Molloy advised that Piers Courage had basically a spare complete car which Niel Allen also purchased.
From memory the spare FVA was purchased by the Late Glynn Scott for his Bowin P3 FVA.
More on the M4C later.

At The Tasman Revival an M4A was over from NZ and from memory it was ex Jo Schlessor and 200-18F.

Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

200-09E , your number , this car wasn't associated with Pat Burke Racing , this would be [ spelling] Tony Osborne , Argo Racing based in Victoria , then I think to the late Ken Hastings , not a clue after that. Youhave just given me a car to look for , I had forgotten about it.
Bryan.

[Chris Townsend]

Bryan

How would 200-06 sit for the Pat Burke car? I have a single entry in my records against Macrow's name for this in 1969. Could this be the Courage spare car that Neil Allen bought?

Chris

[Pete Stowe]

According to my contemporary notes, I’ve always had had the Jim Palmer car down as the ex-McLaren works car M4A/1. To Palmer for ’68 Tasman series; then 1968-70 to Osborne for Macrow & Costanzo; and 1970-71 Pat Burke/Warwick Brown.

For M4A/2 after Courage I have 1968/69 Neil Allen/F Gibson, then 1970/71 Pat Burke/L Goodwin.

Others with new chassis in 1968 were:
M Payne – 1600cc Ford, for F2.
John Bosomworth - chassis specially lengthened for Buick V8, known as M4A Special, for F Libre racing.

Also,
The ex-Chequered Flag/ Bill Stone F3 car - in 1970 with T.Phillip, 1600cc Ford, UK hillclimbs.

20018F ex-Schlesser – in 1971 with G Schafer (Switzerland), FVA, F2.

20020F Chequered Flag/Widdowes – wrecked at Crystal Palace 3.6.68 & replacement chassis needed.

The Graeme Lawrence 1968/69 Tasman car - with Frank Radisich 1969/70 Tasman; then 1971/72 Jan Bussell (Malaysia), F Libre, crashed in 1972 & possibly written off.

Other unknown cars:
1968 – M Eyerley – FB

1971 – C Millis/K Hastings and 1972 K Hastings (Australia)

1972 – D Heney (New Zealand)

1975 – J Hunt (UK, sprint)

There was also the McLaren built M4B/1 with 2-litre BRM V8 engine used by Bruce in early 1967 GP’s before being destroyed by fire.

[John Turner]

I hope that horizon (warm welcome h) doesn't mind but I have found an old thread on this subject which I have merged onto the top of this thread. I'm also sure that I have some pics somewhere of one of the two original cars which I'll put up when I find them!

[horizon]

The info I have so far is from Peter Herbert (NZ)
Chassis #1 B.McLaren car,Then to J Palmer nz for 68 tasman
#2 Piers courage F2 car (chassis written off) replacement chassis was courages tasman car. won Longford
#3 Chequered Flag F3, sold as Twin cam
#4 - ???/
# 10 T/c
# 11 Rollinson
# 12?
#13 Chequered flag F2, Now with T.Lee.usa
#14 G. Lawrence FVA Tasman car, Now with P. Herbert NZ
#15 ?
#16 Eccurie Intersport F2
#17 Eccurie Intersport F2,
# 18 Eccurie intersport F2 , Jarrard larousse
# 19 ?
#20 Robin Widdows, chequered Flag F2
# 23 Now with R. Griot usa, F2
# 23-24??
# 26 Martin sellers ?? FB
#27 chuck Deitrich FB

Can anybody fill in the gaps??

I know the early M4's (4 to 6 cars) were built a little different in regards to suspension design and design of some of the outer pickup points in the tub are different from of the later cars. WHY ?? mcLaren v's Trojan?

Regards
Tony

[allenbrown]

Chuck Dietrich had two cars: the first was 200-10 for 1967 and went to Henry Hester for 1968 and maybe for 1969. I have some copy correspondence between Trojan and Hester regarding this car.

The numbering of these cars is a difficulty. Two cars were built by McLaren and had BMMR chassis plates M4A-1 and M4A-2. Then Trojan built cars but I don't know where their numbering started - maybe 200-1 but just as likely they left a gap (as they did on the Can-Am McLarens) so may have started from 200-3 or even as high as 200-6.

[allenbrown]

John, could we rename this thread "McLaren M4A and M4B"? (Yes, done - JT) The M4B notation was used on three cars: by BMMR for their F1 car built on a M4A tub, by Trojan for the FB version of the M4A and by Bosomworth for his Trojan-built hillclimb special.