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Old 10 Feb 2010, 10:18 (Ref:2630503)   #26
SWCRacing
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No, Rubbing is not Racing. Racing is a non-contact sport, period! That's what it says in the rules. The sooner more people are punished contact the better. You are, afterall, meant to be in control of your car at all times! For UK racers, read the 2010 Blue Book! For internationals. read the International Sporting Code
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 13:08 (Ref:2630588)   #27
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It seems alot of people are very hypocritical when it comes to these comments. It is fine to throw constant blocks using your car as an obstacle that you force another driver to touch to get by yet at the same time it isn't ok to give them a little bump if you are the car behind?

So I have to make sure i get this right using your car as a barrier to keep a faster car behind you is completly fine but the minute someone puts a bump on you it is wrong..hypocrite anyone? Racing goes both ways if you consistently slow a faster car down by using your car as an obstacle then you can't be mad when you get bumped.

I am in no way in favor of major contact but it is ridiculous that it is percieved racing can only be one way in favor of someone obsessively blocking...
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 13:39 (Ref:2630611)   #28
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Nothing hypocritical about it at all.

Read the rules about defensive driving and blocking.

If you have to use hit someone to make a pass then you're doing something wrong.

Racing is not a contact sport.
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 13:52 (Ref:2630617)   #29
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Originally Posted by cthib10 View Post
It seems alot of people are very hypocritical when it comes to these comments. It is fine to throw constant blocks using your car as an obstacle that you force another driver to touch to get by yet at the same time it isn't ok to give them a little bump if you are the car behind?

So I have to make sure i get this right using your car as a barrier to keep a faster car behind you is completly fine but the minute someone puts a bump on you it is wrong..hypocrite anyone? Racing goes both ways if you consistently slow a faster car down by using your car as an obstacle then you can't be mad when you get bumped.

I am in no way in favor of major contact but it is ridiculous that it is percieved racing can only be one way in favor of someone obsessively blocking...

Perhaps there are different rule's across the globe? Over here on our small plot of land,it is allowed to block once on a lap,the car in front will be shown the blue flag informing the driver that theres a strong possibilty that he is about to be passed.You will get shown the blue at three marshals post's,if you ignore all three and continue blocking,its black flag time,and a chat with the CoC,make sure you have an excuse that he has never heard before.[Warning,the likelyhood of you being totally original,is VERY unlikely!] Basicly,if you cant race clean,get a job on a fairground.
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 13:55 (Ref:2630621)   #30
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Cars are obsticles, and if you can't get by without touching, then you should either settle for 2nd or hang up your driver helmet, if the driver in front is using just one defensive move, as in the rulebook, and keeps efectivly blocking you, then he is suposed to win, the car in the back didn't do its job properly, the whole pont of racing isn't for the fastest car/driver to win, but the most skilled!

the whole point is, that catching up to someone and making the pass are very different things, one is a 100m sprint , the other is 110m hurdles, the car in front is an obsticle!
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 14:12 (Ref:2630633)   #31
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There is nothing skillful about holding up a car that is faster than you. I don't care how you try to put a spin on it the fact of the matter is that obsessive blocking is as pathetic as wrecking someone to get by in my mind.

I can't sit and think wow he is such a good driver b/c he puts a 2k lb barrier in the way of a faster car for lap after lap. That isn't skillful that is it is just asking to get bumped.

I know in most cases where it really becomes excessive are when for example at laguna last year Mags was much quicker in the corners even had great runs coming off of them but Berg did nothing skillful by thowing his car in the way lap after lap just daring Mags to bump him...The only time Berg had any hope was on the straight and it really doesn't take any skill to drive in a straight line. Mags tried over and over to pass clean but Berg got obsessive with blocking and I don't blame Mag at all for giving him a bump in the last corner anyone would have been mad by that point when someone slower is blocking to that extent. I don't see skill in that and never will.
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 14:25 (Ref:2630641)   #32
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Originally Posted by terence bower View Post
Over here on our small plot of land,it is allowed to block once on a lap,the car in front will be shown the blue flag informing the driver that theres a strong possibilty that he is about to be passed.You will get shown the blue at three marshals post's,if you ignore all three and continue blocking,its black flag time,and a chat with the CoC,make sure you have an excuse that he has never heard before.
I think you're working to a different Blue Book than I am!

On blocking, one change of direction to defend a position is allowed - there's no "once per lap" rule.

The important point on the blue flag is that it will normally only be used when cars are being lapped; if they are racing, it's up to the driver behind to get past. There is no "three posts" rule. The Blue Book does state that a driver who appears to ignore the blue flag will be reported to the Clerk of the Course; as it's a driving standards offence, I would expect that in the first instance he would be shown the black-&-white flag, only being black-flagged for repeat offences.
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 14:25 (Ref:2630642)   #33
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There are rules for both blocking and avoidable contact, and both are subject to penalties even exclusions.
IMSA is very strict about blockin at least in the rules it states :

Any driver who, in the sole opinion of the Race Director and/or Stewards, alters their racing line based on the
actions of pursuing competitors, or uses an abnormal racing line to inhibit or prevent passing may be considered to
be “blocking” and may be warned or penalized pursuant to Article 8 of the IMSA Code.

Unfortinatly the decision or lack of is not subject to apeal or protest,

So the ones most in the wrong are the race directors at laguna for not folowing their rules and upholding them for the sake of sport, and that led to a cumalitive event of jan ending up in the wall, thats what happens if you trow the book out the window
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 14:38 (Ref:2630651)   #34
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dxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by terence bower View Post
...the car in front will be shown the blue flag informing the driver that theres a strong possibilty that he is about to be passed.You will get shown the blue at three marshals post's,if you ignore all three and continue blocking,its black flag time...
The race or class leader will never get the blue flag except if he is inordinately slow or unless a faster car in a faster class is approaching. You will not be blue flagged for blocking to protect your lead.

Sorry, looks like Dave Brand already made this point.

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Old 10 Feb 2010, 14:43 (Ref:2630654)   #35
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dxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by arakis View Post
So the ones most in the wrong are the race directors at laguna for not folowing their rules and upholding them for the sake of sport, and that led to a cumalitive event of jan ending up in the wall, thats what happens if you trow the book out the window
I appreciate your position here, but I can't see a race director ordering the class leader to make way for a faster car. Isn't that why we race; to show we can get by.

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Old 10 Feb 2010, 15:35 (Ref:2630678)   #36
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Originally Posted by cthib10 View Post
There is nothing skillful about holding up a car that is faster than you. I don't care how you try to put a spin on it the fact of the matter is that obsessive blocking is as pathetic as wrecking someone to get by in my mind.

I can't sit and think wow he is such a good driver b/c he puts a 2k lb barrier in the way of a faster car for lap after lap. That isn't skillful that is it is just asking to get bumped.

I know in most cases where it really becomes excessive are when for example at laguna last year Mags was much quicker in the corners even had great runs coming off of them but Berg did nothing skillful by thowing his car in the way lap after lap just daring Mags to bump him...The only time Berg had any hope was on the straight and it really doesn't take any skill to drive in a straight line. Mags tried over and over to pass clean but Berg got obsessive with blocking and I don't blame Mag at all for giving him a bump in the last corner anyone would have been mad by that point when someone slower is blocking to that extent. I don't see skill in that and never will.
So defending the inside is blocking now? Not once did Joerg change his line multiple times to block Jan, Joerg played by the rules, Jan was the one that got obsessive with the bumping and grinding, but then we should expect that from Jan as he has a history of dirty driving in Grand am and ALMS.
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 15:43 (Ref:2630684)   #37
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Originally Posted by NightStalk3r View Post
So defending the inside is blocking now? Not once did Joerg change his line multiple times to block Jan, Joerg played by the rules, Jan was the one that got obsessive with the bumping and grinding, but then we should expect that from Jan as he has a history of dirty driving in Grand am and ALMS.

Joerg never forced Jan in almost off the track on at any time? What race were you watching?
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 15:47 (Ref:2630688)   #38
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Joerg never forced Jan in almost off the track on at any time? What race were you watching?
If Jan wants to try and go round the outside of turn 2 and out into the dirt that's his problem for being stupid enough to think Joerg was going to leave the door wide open for him, you could also say that was payback for Jonny O putting Westbrook completely off the road in the same corner?
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 15:55 (Ref:2630692)   #39
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Originally Posted by NightStalk3r View Post
If Jan wants to try and go round the outside of turn 2 and out into the dirt that's his problem for being stupid enough to think Joerg was going to leave the door wide open for him, you could also say that was payback for Jonny O putting Westbrook completely off the road in the same corner?
Ok so to recap the situation you have a guy that is running much slower than Jan consistently blocking him to the extent that he nearly runs him off the track when he gets the chance for many laps do you really think a bump on the last corner of the last lap isn't to be expected? I don't know of anyone that would have a cool head after having to deal with that. I think in certain situations it is racing and it happens that is one time where it is understandable to me anyway.
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 16:02 (Ref:2630695)   #40
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NightStalk3r should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridNightStalk3r should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by cthib10 View Post
Ok so to recap the situation you have a guy that is running much slower than Jan consistently blocking him to the extent that he nearly runs him off the track when he gets the chance for many laps do you really think a bump on the last corner of the last lap isn't to be expected? I don't know of anyone that would have a cool head after having to deal with that. I think in certain situations it is racing and it happens that is one time where it is understandable to me anyway.
If Joerg was "much" slower as you suggest then Jan could have easily got past, what do you you expect Joerg to do just pull over and let Jan go past? there was a few minutes left on the clock.

Anyway this whole Laguna thing has been done to death and im bored of it.
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 18:49 (Ref:2630808)   #41
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Ok so to recap the situation you have a guy that is running much slower than Jan consistently blocking him to the extent that he nearly runs him off the track when he gets the chance for many laps do you really think a bump on the last corner of the last lap isn't to be expected? I don't know of anyone that would have a cool head after having to deal with that.
I have to say, I can think of plenty, both past and present. Top class drivers for whom deliberate contact would be virtually unthinkable. Probably because those top class drivers actually appreciate the carnage they might cause if they did make deliberate contact. Carnage that could well place other drivers lives at risk.

Interesting debate though - even if I positively can't see both points of view!

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....while your at it , do ye all keep your cool "ALL" the time , or do ye slip every now and then ?



I don't think I'd be inclined to let my cool slip so far that I'd deliberately hit another vehicle when racing at speed, no...... If I did that 'every now and then' I wouldn't expect to retain my racing licence for very long. Either that or I'd expect to find myself in hospital from time to time.....

Last edited by Aysedasi; 10 Feb 2010 at 18:54.
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Old 10 Feb 2010, 21:08 (Ref:2630926)   #42
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I fear there's a serious disconnect between reality and perception.
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