[Driver] Renault sign the Honey Badger

[steve_r]

He is not going to be WDC next season in either the Red Bull or the Renault.

Renault are surely a team on the up. RBR are going to have Honda engines.

[F1Guy]

RBR/Horner were blindsided apparently. It was a surprise to them as well.

Renault and Ricciardo have just turned the 2019 driver market on it's head! What now of the rumoured Ocon to Renault? Sainz to McLaren? Perez to HAAS? Stroll to Force India? Leclerc to Ferrari? Kimi to Sauber?

There's a lot of negotiations to be sought out over the summer break for many drivers now. This has taken everyone by surprise, and a lot of phone calls going on right now.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I think this is a good move. He's outclassed by Verstappen and next year is gonna be a disaster with the Honda engine. There is every chance Renault might be able to beat Red Bull next year.

In what sense is he “outclassed” by Verstappen? He’s consistently outscoring him.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Did not expect this. It’s a gamble, but then, in retrospect, so would have been staying with Red Bull.

The Honda engine is a bit of a gamble.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

In what sense is he “outclassed” by Verstappen? He’s consistently outscoring him.

Actually he's not. Only when Verstappen messed up at the start of the year. Since then it's been clear who's the better driver.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Actually he's not. Only when Verstappen messed up at the start of the year. Since then it's been clear who's the better driver.

So Max is the better driver, except when he’s not? Ricciardo is currently ahead of him in the points, as I think he was last year.

[peterelise]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Actually he's not. Only when Verstappen messed up at the start of the year. Since then it's been clear who's the better driver.

Actually your view is subjective and is not borne out by any stats.

I'm sure because of the head to head in qualifying that you and many others (including me) will say Max is a better qualifier and if the question was who can consistantly get a fast lap out, I would agree Max appears to have it over Daniel there. However, the average qualifying position, even including the rounds where mechanical mishaps or bad luck in the wet at Hungary have hurt Daniel show that Daniel has a higher average qualifying position (because Max has crashed twice that impacted his qualifying).

In terms of who is outscoring who on race days (which is what BSchneiderFan referenced), it is pretty clear Daniel is in fact consistently better. In races where both have finished, Daniel is miles ahead - 96 versus 68 points. If you look at average race points when they don't have a mechanical DNF, the average points per race for Daniel is 13.1 and for Max it is 10.5. I think it is pretty clear than Daniel is consistently outscoring Max (which was the case last year and the year before).

[steve_r]

There are plenty of threads on Max vs Ricc'. There is rarely more than a couple of tenths between them whichever way your allegiances lie.

[S griffin]

Well I wonder what will happen with Sainz? Is there going to be a direct swap?

Suddenly, though RBR ain’t quite the hot ticket it used to be. Of course with Max being the future at the team, Danny probably felt it was time to find a new team. We can finally see how good the Hulk is too

[BSchneiderFan]

Verstappen and Sainz also didn’t get along very well at Toro Rosso. I have a sneaking suspicion Gasly might get the nod, with Sainz (somewhat unjustly, in my view) being offered the choice between his old seat at STR and the door.

[GT6]

Will RBR do a maclaren and start to sink into the midfield, i do fear for them, a new engine a driver who has potential but seems to make mistakes and an unknown as yet no 2 driver, i think RBR are in for a tough few years, but i hope Daniel does well at renault.

[justracing]

Originally Posted by peterelise

Actually your view is subjective and is not borne out by any stats.

I'm sure because of the head to head in qualifying that you and many others (including me) will say Max is a better qualifier and if the question was who can consistantly get a fast lap out, I would agree Max appears to have it over Daniel there. However, the average qualifying position, even including the rounds where mechanical mishaps or bad luck in the wet at Hungary have hurt Daniel show that Daniel has a higher average qualifying position (because Max has crashed twice that impacted his qualifying).

In terms of who is outscoring who on race days (which is what BSchneiderFan referenced), it is pretty clear Daniel is in fact consistently better. In races where both have finished, Daniel is miles ahead - 96 versus 68 points. If you look at average race points when they don't have a mechanical DNF, the average points per race for Daniel is 13.1 and for Max it is 10.5. I think it is pretty clear than Daniel is consistently outscoring Max (which was the case last year and the year before).

Thanks for posting that, I've always had the impression that Daniel had the edge

[GT6]

That is because Daniel is the better racer, IMHO of course

[BSchneiderFan]

I don’t want to drag this into a fanboy slanging match; I think they’re pretty equal, and one of the most evenly-matched pairings on the grid. Verstappen probably has the edge in qualifying, but Ricciardo has the ability to produce extraordinary results from unpromising circumstances. Each is a race winner, and each, I would say, would be a worthy champion. Here endeth the lesson.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by peterelise

Actually your view is subjective and is not borne out by any stats.

I'm sure because of the head to head in qualifying that you and many others (including me) will say Max is a better qualifier and if the question was who can consistantly get a fast lap out, I would agree Max appears to have it over Daniel there. However, the average qualifying position, even including the rounds where mechanical mishaps or bad luck in the wet at Hungary have hurt Daniel show that Daniel has a higher average qualifying position (because Max has crashed twice that impacted his qualifying).

In terms of who is outscoring who on race days (which is what BSchneiderFan referenced), it is pretty clear Daniel is in fact consistently better. In races where both have finished, Daniel is miles ahead - 96 versus 68 points. If you look at average race points when they don't have a mechanical DNF, the average points per race for Daniel is 13.1 and for Max it is 10.5. I think it is pretty clear than Daniel is consistently outscoring Max (which was the case last year and the year before).

That's because Max messed up twice (Australia and China) while driving in front of Ricciardo.

Since then Verstappen qualified and finished in front in France, Spain and Canada. Ricciardo has never had a mechanical faillure while driving in front of Verstappen while the opposite has happened twice this season already. The same was true last season, Max had woeful reliability and every time he had a mechanical he was racing ahead and away from Ricciardo.

Stats are nothing without context. Anyway it's a moot point, nobody will suggest Ricciardo is actually a faster and better driver. The decision to leave underlines that.

[ASCII Man]

Someone that messes up is a better driver? I'd love some of what you're having.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Someone that messes up is a better driver? I'd love some of what you're having.

By that logic Jon Field would be one of the best sportscar racers ever. Man could start a race but the wick to 11 and tires gone in 5 laps tends to end poorly. As Max has had a bad habit of doing. He has had mechanical failures but he's also shot himself in the foot.

Never understood the better driver comparisons that try to drop races and make excuses. Do they drop races in the points scoring for WDC? I didn't think so why drop races when comparing drivers. Their job is to get to the end and any time you've broken your car you have failed

[peterelise]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

That's because Max messed up twice (Australia and China) while driving in front of Ricciardo.

yes I agree that if you ignore the self inflicted spin in Australia, and then there was the time he messed up in Qualy in Bahrain and his car got a surge of horsepower that later turned out to be caused by his foot pressing the throttle (and incidentally the same race when Dan was in front of him but had a car failure) and that time he crashed in P3 at Monaco and destroyed the car bad enough they couldn't fix it in time for Qualy (just like he had done the year before - how embarrassing) or that time he was in front of Dan in China but took himself off track and finished 5th when he could have been first. I mean, if you forget about all those (and let's face it, it is only 4 events out of the 8 Max has finished so its not like he makes these sort of mistakes often) Max is clearly a better racer than Dan

Seriously, Max is a great driver and Red Bull signed him up till 2020 on big bucks and have clearly prioritised him over Dan so they obviously see more potential in him but you will tie yourself in knots arguing he is a better racer than Dan based on the evidence we have (over 3 seasons now) which was what the original post was about. I think we are all agreed he will continue to improve as a racer with more experience (and on the evidence so far he needs to).

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Someone that messes up is a better driver? I'd love some of what you're having.

Except that's completely not what I said. Try reading it again.

[ASCII Man]

To finish first, first you must finish. It's a simple concept. And one that Max still has to grasp.

Your patronizing nonsense will not change that.

[FAS33]

Max can’t even string 4 races together without crashing into someone.

Daniel Ricciardo destroys Max in every category, plus he’s funnier then Max.

[Greem]

Stepping away from the nyah nyah a moment:

Max clearly has ludicrous speed but his racecraft is questionable, which in theory will improve with experience.

Daniel also has ludicrous speed, but the experience he has means his racecraft is better in that he's less likely to do something dumb.

The problem with doing something dumb is that it relies upon people with decent racecraft around you, and a realisation by all parties that you're all playing the long game.

Max doesn't seem to realise that latter piece.

Yet. He'll be genuinely brilliant if he ever does.

[Adam43]

I thought they were going to sign Webber.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I thought they were going to sign Webber.

Right country - Wrong postcode
Who gets the boot?

[Adam43]

And will it be full of champagne?