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Old 31 Dec 2011, 17:45 (Ref:3005907)   #1
Derwent Motorsp
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Derwent Motorsp should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
A rant on to closed to club race meetings

I've been involved in all types of motorsport all my life, both as an organiser and competitor. Now when a club organises a rally, or a speed event, for example on a Nationl B permit they can invite many other clubs or even two regional associaions of clubs. This is normal practice.
In racing it seems that either clubs run effectively closed to club meetings or only invite specific championships.
I don't particularly want to follow a championship or series but just do a few events that I enjoy. For reasons of distance, my "clerking" duties and holidays my free weekends to race are limited. I have tried to enter a few meetings where there was a suitable race but I was told I would have to join the club (even part fee) and not get the club discount for registered championship drivers. As a member of the MGCC and my own local club I don't see the need to join any more. The particular races I wanted to do did not get full entries so the club lost out by being greedy.
I about the only club that does open up its races is the Bentley DC and in some cases the VSCC.
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Old 31 Dec 2011, 18:03 (Ref:3005910)   #2
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I'm sure a lot of people agree with you - there has been considerable debate on this topic in other threads on this forum........Al Weyman in particular arguing the same case as you....See this thread: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130625

I can see that series organisers need to raise a certain amount of revenue upfront, as they have to commit to circuit hire well in advance, but equally sure that some form of differential entry fees could be sorted, with none-registered racers allowed an entry at a slightly higher entry fee provided no registered competitors are refused an entry - ie whenever there are spare places. Obviously they wouldn't be eligible for points / awards etc.....

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Old 1 Jan 2012, 11:10 (Ref:3006053)   #3
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Yep I agree with all of the above, the whole policy is simply self defeating. For what I want to do this year will cost me no less than £410 before I start which is daft and the consequence is I wont be, their loss IMHO.
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Old 1 Jan 2012, 11:15 (Ref:3006058)   #4
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I have said this in other forums , relating back to the 70s when you joined one club and were invited by other organising club to the events, Brands club races were usually over subscribed. The clubs now are greddy and money grabbing being over protective of their own little empires. Most clubs seem to be run by people who have no flair ,drive or business sense, for instance last year tried to get a one off entry to a clubs event but was turned down unless I joined and registered, the grid was not full so could they really afford to turn me away , the secretary has the business skills of a rock ape ! This year we are trying to stay racing in the south and am having a hard job trying to get clubs to let us race without joining etc, it would work out about 3 races with each club, do they want us or not, if they pi55 me off too much I might just call it a day and stop sponsoring the car that I run . The 360 club seem to have the right idea no club fees so we will enter their sprint race , perhaps they could organise more events, would have full grids with that philosophy. Might even get a reply from clubs on here but doubt it as they sit in their ivory towers with the shutters drawn.
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Old 1 Jan 2012, 11:32 (Ref:3006061)   #5
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Maybe the MSA should take a lead here and ban these requirements to belong to clubs or register for championships after all according to their rules you only have to belong to one MSA registered club so just maybe the rule is already in place and the clubs are breaking the rules by this insistance they must join other clubs. When I ran the Racing Saloon Car Club I charged a nominal £25 a year which covered costs for newsletters etc (nothing fancy just a black and white copy) and postage and a few club trophies and I still had funds left over at the end of the year in fact I bought an expensive EaziUp marquee one year but that was not really required. I recon today with the internet and email I could do it for a score a year max. All the other club activities like end of year bash should be self financing or dropped. And do we really need things like fancy T-shirts etc, if I want a t-shirt I will by one or print one, and also a well run club should be selling their own and making a bit of extra money as I have offered to set up many times and supply and ensure there is something left in it for the club but it doesnt happen as its easier to just stick the fees up again. Also take the BARC colour mag, does anyone actually read the thing, I don't. I dread to think what the annual costs of that are at least CTCRC had the sense to drop theirs.

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Old 1 Jan 2012, 11:38 (Ref:3006062)   #6
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Well,there's a thought! Claire,John,what do you think?
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Old 1 Jan 2012, 14:43 (Ref:3006121)   #7
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It's not so much 'what we think', which is well known. We (as in 360MRC) have chosen to go one way, which we believe is in the best interests of the customers (competitors).
What other clubs/championships/series choose to do, is really up to them - I guess time will tell, when the customers vote in their clubs, with their feet or otherwise.
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Old 1 Jan 2012, 17:12 (Ref:3006170)   #8
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sorry John,hadn't realised that Al's post came straight after historic racers,the post my reply was in response too.
I sometimes wonder IF it is indeed possible to put on a non profit race series.Obviously well aware of circuit hire costings and so on.
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Old 1 Jan 2012, 21:20 (Ref:3006248)   #9
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Most clubs seem to be run by people who have no flair ,drive or business sense, for instance last year tried to get a one off entry to a clubs event but was turned down unless I joined and registered....
Sorry but such a generalist comment based upon one experience should not slurr all organisations. For a start, "Clubs" are just that, they serve their Members first and so they should; although some such as HSCC go way beyond this, providing a wider role. You can't expect to go around 'gatecrashing' events just because that is your want. I would dread the thought that at every race that our Club organised, the grids numbers were made up with a bunch of 'angry locals' who were wound up against the 'esablishment and might not, for example, have full resect for the event, the machinery or the other competitors.

Let me know where you live, I'll post your address on the Ten-Tinkers Forum, they dont like paying rates up-front, or taxes, or adding to the community; but would love to live in your back yard for free.
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Old 1 Jan 2012, 22:03 (Ref:3006260)   #10
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£220 or more for a 15 minute race free? I dont think so. Enough already before the whole thing implodes, just dont need anymore expenses on top of the entries.
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Old 2 Jan 2012, 08:36 (Ref:3006336)   #11
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I think we need to be careful to differentiate between clubs that represent a region or specific make / type of car and pure circuit racing clubs. As a member of the Sporting Car Club of Norfolk I receive invitations to more events run by other clubs- usually in the same region. But they will be for rallies, autotests, trials etc. I wouldn't compare what the SCCON do with HSCC or CSCC, for instance! The BDC and VSCC also in my view cannot be compared with them.

I guess charging a registration fee, as some clubs do, for a championship was / is a way of getting us competitors to commit to several races or all to get vfm? Unfortunately for most of us nowadays it isn't practical with so many clubs and so many events all over Europe to choose from. Looking at this year I would like to do one event with organiser A, couple with organiser B, maybe 3 with organiser C and same with club D. At the end of the day if that involves paying a fee to all of them to join or register (or both!) before paying entry fee, sadly it isn't going to happen.

Would be good to list the clubs and organisations not requiring a fee of some sort? 360MRC has already been mentioned, and Jim Lowry has declared that the Equipe GTS series running mostly with AMOC this year will not require a fee to register. Among the commercial organisations, last year Motor Racing Legends did not require any other payment apart from entry, and from memory neither have GTSCC or Carol Spragg with her various series.

Of the ones requiring money up front, AFAIK HSCC membership allows you to race in any of their championships without registration fee on top? What about the other 'historic' clubs?
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Old 2 Jan 2012, 10:13 (Ref:3006360)   #12
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....... When I ran the Racing Saloon Car Club I charged a nominal £25 a year which covered costs for newsletters etc (nothing fancy just a black and white copy) and postage and a few club trophies .................
Lest we forget; to run in that championship one had to be a member of the BARC who arranged the circuits and events and thus took the risk on filling the grids.

But I do have a question for you. If someone wanted to run in your races on an ad hoc basis, did you require some form of membership fee?
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Old 2 Jan 2012, 10:49 (Ref:3006366)   #13
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Derwent Motorsp should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I don't really see why the clubs that run race meetings are any different to clubs that runs rallies, speed events autotests etc. The local club of which I am secretary, has some 600 members so is perhaps bigger than some of the racing only clubs. The commercial risk of running a forest stage rally is perhaps bigger than that of many race meetings
I just don't understand McMuttley's point that people can't do the events they want to without signing up for a whole series. It is only in racing that that exists. For example today at Croft there is a single venue rally on the circuit with 70 plus entries from about 20 different clubs.
Last August whenthe HSCC ran a meeting at Croft, quite a few local drivers wanted to enter who don't normally do HSCC events as they are so southern based. The extra fees they wanted in order for us to enter were about £50 I think, thus they ran with less than full grids and will have had a reduced income.
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Old 2 Jan 2012, 12:46 (Ref:3006394)   #14
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I don't really see why the clubs that run race meetings are any different to clubs that runs rallies, speed events autotests etc.
Graeme, my point was that while in a club such as CSCC (for example), all the members will belong to it as they race with them, with a regional club like SCCON (again for example!) people will join for various reasons. If the latter puts on a special stage rally it is not going to fill the entry with own members. It needs to invite other clubs and vice versa when they put on similar events. If pure racing clubs can stay solvent just with their own membership then they will probably continue to charge 'day membership' or whatever. Incidentally HSCC charge £10 for a 'once per season' day membership so not sure where your figure of £50 came from. Maybe twice per season would be fairer looking at full membership cost, but I'd pay that if it meant getting a race with them!
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Old 2 Jan 2012, 15:27 (Ref:3006428)   #15
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Last August whenthe HSCC ran a meeting at Croft, quite a few local drivers wanted to enter who don't normally do HSCC events as they are so southern based. The extra fees they wanted in order for us to enter were about £50 I think, thus they ran with less than full grids and will have had a reduced income.

It cost me more than £100 in fuel to travel to Croft and back.

Just a thought on how much it costs to race,period.
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Old 2 Jan 2012, 16:07 (Ref:3006445)   #16
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It cost me more than £100 in fuel to travel to Croft and back.
Just a thought on how much it costs to race,period.
fair point, with what I save by not having to pay joining / registration / membership fees I can race at Spa (316 miles) instead of Croft (264 miles) - no contest!
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Old 2 Jan 2012, 17:11 (Ref:3006470)   #17
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Lest we forget; to run in that championship one had to be a member of the BARC who arranged the circuits and events and thus took the risk on filling the grids.

But I do have a question for you. If someone wanted to run in your races on an ad hoc basis, did you require some form of membership fee?
Yes we allowed it on occassions as I recollect and I believed asked for a donation to the club and no points, it all depended on the circumstances but as the fee to join was nominal it generally wasnt an issue. Also I agree BARC did require membership which was fair enough as they did the donkey work and as you said took the risks which enabled our club to keep registration/membership at a very low fee, I dont think many would object to that. Also
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Old 2 Jan 2012, 19:28 (Ref:3006514)   #18
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Sorry but such a generalist comment based upon one experience should not slurr all organisations. For a start, "Clubs" are just that, they serve their Members first and so they should; although some such as HSCC go way beyond this, providing a wider role. You can't expect to go around 'gatecrashing' events just because that is your want. I would dread the thought that at every race that our Club organised, the grids numbers were made up with a bunch of 'angry locals' who were wound up against the 'esablishment and might not, for example, have full resect for the event, the machinery or the other competitors.

Let me know where you live, I'll post your address on the Ten-Tinkers Forum, they dont like paying rates up-front, or taxes, or adding to the community; but would love to live in your back yard for free.
You have read through my post but not into it, what we have is not a useful contribution to the discussion but a personal attack on myself. If the last part is a sample of your capabilities , you would be best served by keeping your stupid comments to yourself ! You do not name the club which you seem to be a self appointed spokesman for, would be interested to know. I will answer one point which you have, for some self important reason, have labelled as " gate crashing " . The club concerned will not be named in case they cannot defend themselves but basically offered to run my driver in one event as an invited entry, with no awards nor allocation of points so that regulars would be in no way affected , it would be as if we were not really there but was still turned down. To race in the south would cost some £500 to join and register with four clubs , money I am not prepared to spend , so what is the alternative ? One option is to turn my back on motor racing, how does that benefit the sport, you would probably say do it ( rock ape mentallity kicks in ) and loose my financial contribution permanantly. Another option is for clubs to offer me day membership for my driver for say £20, again running as invited and no awards of trophy's or points , perhaps even you can figure that answer out ???
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Old 2 Jan 2012, 23:31 (Ref:3006592)   #19
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Take a chill pill - what's personal ???

Your post invites/provokes response? Your post comments critically on others, so dont get umpty if the responses aren't all cuddly.

This is sport/leisure sector like any, where there a mix of people/companies/organisations that serve/support competitors and make money in the process; whilst at the same time others do it for the love of the sport.

I dont begrudge those making a profit from running a business and I am hugely grateful to those that, whether for profit or not, allow me to have fun when I can (whilst for the main part of the year, I can focus on earning a crust just about thick enough to scrape a few races out of).

As others have hinted, registration fees represent such a small amount of a season's racing for any individual / team. For me - a modest club racer without the budget to do a full year - registration costs are less than 1% to 1.5%.

Taking into account, for example; storage, insurance, paying the man who knows what he is doing to prep, repair and set up the car so that i can have fun (he runs a business and deserves to make a profit - dont you ??), fuel at and to/from races (taxes and oil company profits), tyres (Avon, i'm happy to recieve tyres at cost or less if you want to offer), parts and rebuilds (again i think you'd agree these are honest people looking for some profit from a sport / business they love), budget hotel costs (they need to pay staff to clean the room), etc etc etc etc. Of course I would also like my bank manager to waive bank charges when I use my overdraft (their money actually) to fund the next race costs / entry fee / new cranky shatfy thingamywhotsit.

A tedious way of making a point, but I think this whole registration cost point is a bit of a herring; if you are willing to spend on what we all have to admit is something of a luxury sport (at whatever level), then the registration cost is bugger all.

I dont have the ability or expertise to create and promote a race/series, search for venues and dates that might suit racers and not conflict with other events. I dont have the cash to negotiate with Mr Palmer, to pay fees/deposits months up-front, I wouldnt know how to provide for insurance/public liability, advertising, etc etc...

I do, however, appreciate how reassuring it is to turn up to a venue/event when all the circuit officials, club staff, marshalls know what is going on and are there solely to make it so easy for me to go out and have fun. I am happy to pay what is a tiny fraction of my overall costs for what is a hugely beneficial service.

I don't represent / promote / defend any club. Like most posters, I speak freely.

I am, hugely grateful to those individuals, companies and volunteers/organisations that spend huge amounts of time creating the opportunties to race.

Rather than get anti-establishment over minimal registration fees; I'd rather we discussed how organisers / events might levy a service charge on 'drivers having fun' to help marshalls; we tip taxi drivers, waitressers etc etc; these guys and gals put themselves out (and often at risk) just for us to have fun.

I wont be responding any more on registration fees, its a herring that become a kipper.
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Old 3 Jan 2012, 00:40 (Ref:3006601)   #20
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Take a chill pill - what's personal ???

Your post invites/provokes response? Your post comments critically on others, so dont get umpty if the responses aren't all cuddly.

This is sport/leisure sector like any, where there a mix of people/companies/organisations that serve/support competitors and make money in the process; whilst at the same time others do it for the love of the sport.

I dont begrudge those making a profit from running a business and I am hugely grateful to those that, whether for profit or not, allow me to have fun when I can (whilst for the main part of the year, I can focus on earning a crust just about thick enough to scrape a few races out of).

As others have hinted, registration fees represent such a small amount of a season's racing for any individual / team. For me - a modest club racer without the budget to do a full year - registration costs are less than 1% to 1.5%.

Taking into account, for example; storage, insurance, paying the man who knows what he is doing to prep, repair and set up the car so that i can have fun (he runs a business and deserves to make a profit - dont you ??), fuel at and to/from races (taxes and oil company profits), tyres (Avon, i'm happy to recieve tyres at cost or less if you want to offer), parts and rebuilds (again i think you'd agree these are honest people looking for some profit from a sport / business they love), budget hotel costs (they need to pay staff to clean the room), etc etc etc etc. Of course I would also like my bank manager to waive bank charges when I use my overdraft (their money actually) to fund the next race costs / entry fee / new cranky shatfy thingamywhotsit.

A tedious way of making a point, but I think this whole registration cost point is a bit of a herring; if you are willing to spend on what we all have to admit is something of a luxury sport (at whatever level), then the registration cost is bugger all.

I dont have the ability or expertise to create and promote a race/series, search for venues and dates that might suit racers and not conflict with other events. I dont have the cash to negotiate with Mr Palmer, to pay fees/deposits months up-front, I wouldnt know how to provide for insurance/public liability, advertising, etc etc...

I do, however, appreciate how reassuring it is to turn up to a venue/event when all the circuit officials, club staff, marshalls know what is going on and are there solely to make it so easy for me to go out and have fun. I am happy to pay what is a tiny fraction of my overall costs for what is a hugely beneficial service.

I don't represent / promote / defend any club. Like most posters, I speak freely.

I am, hugely grateful to those individuals, companies and volunteers/organisations that spend huge amounts of time creating the opportunties to race.

Rather than get anti-establishment over minimal registration fees; I'd rather we discussed how organisers / events might levy a service charge on 'drivers having fun' to help marshalls; we tip taxi drivers, waitressers etc etc; these guys and gals put themselves out (and often at risk) just for us to have fun.

I wont be responding any more on registration fees, its a herring that become a kipper.
You make out to be hard-done by but you are wallowing in luxury; plenty of club racers do their own builds / prep / repairs, sleep in vans (campers if you are lucky), store the car at home, don't bother insuring it 'cos it's not worth that much, etc.
I reckon if you were a bit more sensible / careful about where and how you spent your money you
(a) might be able to afford a whole season, and
(b) might not need an overdraft.
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Old 3 Jan 2012, 07:41 (Ref:3006631)   #21
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.........plenty of club racers do their own builds / prep / repairs, sleep in vans (campers if you are lucky), store the car at home, don't bother insuring it 'cos it's not worth that much, etc.
I reckon if you were a bit more sensible / careful about where and how you spent your money you
(a) might be able to afford a whole season, and
(b) might not need an overdraft.
So taking your position then, those of who can't build their own cars (for whatever reason) shouldn't comment? Seems somewhat harsh to me. Of course the other side of the coin is, that by having someone prepare the car there's a better chance of finishing a race (depending on the car of course), therefore many would suggest it is better to enter with a reasonable expectation of finishing, than enter a car that only lasts ten minutes simply because self preparation is cheap. I think the point made was that the entry fees are a small percentage of the overall cost of racing. And of course one of the most vociferous proponents of the opposite position actually prepares his own cars!

Going back to Al's discussion re the Racing Saloon Car Club he ran. The club fee bought entry to the championship, it did not buy entry to the events. That only came by being a registered member of the BARC. Thus even if you didn't want to join the RSCC, you still had to be a member of the BARC if you wanted to enter one of the races. I believe this situation still applies to the CTCRC (excepting a couple of club promoted events).

Why do people constantly complain about this? If you don't want to enter because of the entry fee requirements then don't. If there are viable alternatives then please table them. IMO and with respect to the OP, all this thread is saying is that life isn't fair and that anyone should be able to race wherever and whenever they like.
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Old 3 Jan 2012, 08:29 (Ref:3006636)   #22
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>>>>>>>Why do people constantly complain about this? If you don't want to enter because of the entry fee requirements then don't.

Good point, because the Market will sort out which series survive and which don't. The MGCC Midget championship has just dropped its registration fee to £40 as long as you register in advance of thes season. The fee was previously £150 and it was seen as one of the reasons for falling entries.

The Porsche 924 championship fee is IIRC £265, or about the cost of a race entry. This on top of BRSCC membership and BRSCC race membership. I can only assume that your average Porsche driver is trying to keep hoi poloi such as me out of their races, and I respect their stance

But the OP's rant was about "closed to club" events, rather than in the rally or speed event world where regional association member clubs are cross-invited. It doesn't happen in racing, is there any reason why? Alex raced his kart at Clay Pigeon last year on a Llandow Club card, because ABKC clubs are cross-invited nationwide. What is it about racing clubs that makes them so cliquey?
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Old 3 Jan 2012, 08:47 (Ref:3006641)   #23
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Why do people constantly complain about this? If you don't want to enter because of the entry fee requirements then don't. If there are viable alternatives then please table them. IMO and with respect to the OP, all this thread is saying is that life isn't fair and that anyone should be able to race wherever and whenever they like.

I've already mentioned some organisers that don't charge registration or membership fees in post #11, and am interested to know of others, if there are any? It would be good to learn something rather than read posters having a pop at each other......

Max, considering the 924 is a 'budget' class in the club championship those fees.......

A few guesses as to why racing clubs do not cross invite- First, if they are not losing money why would they need to? Second, if their series is / are for specific cars, ensuring invited entries comply to their regs could be a problem? Driving standards- easier to police when all competitors known to the club? Must be more......
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Old 3 Jan 2012, 09:20 (Ref:3006650)   #24
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There is of course another reason why is can be a bit tricky allowing non championship cars into a championship race. What about the poor bod who has prepared his car, dipped into his overdraft and is racing for the championship, things are looking good when on the penultimate race he trips over two cars who are racing each other. And the cars aren't even registered for the championship!
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Old 3 Jan 2012, 10:16 (Ref:3006667)   #25
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Why do people constantly complain about this? If you don't want to enter because of the entry fee requirements then don't. If there are viable alternatives then please table them. IMO and with respect to the OP, all this thread is saying is that life isn't fair and that anyone should be able to race wherever and whenever they like.
I think the reason this is now coming to the fore and being raised repeatedly in discussion is twofold. (a) Recession and (b) cost of petrol. For both these reasons guys want to simply cut down on their travelling or be forced to give up. The argument this is just a small cost in the whole scheme of things doesnt hold water to me either as it could be the straw that broke the camels back and the deciding factor do I race or dont I. The days when a club held 12 rounds all over the country and you signed up for that and committed are gone, also many clubs have condensed the calendar to 6 to 8 rounds freeing up dates for guys that want more racing and would like to do local rounds so this may be a third reason this is now coming about. Maybe its about time clubsa with similar series/championships opened their doors to members of rival clubs as I am sure it would work for both clubs mutual benifits and get those grids filled!!!!!.
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