[Official] Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 21 of 22

[Aysedasi]

In hindsight, maybe it was the right thing to do, but it just seemed' wrong' to be negotiating for all to hear with the team of the driver who had offended... Maybe it's just that we're not normally privy to such 'negotiations'. It did make me laugh when it was suggested by RBR that they would then start second behind Ocon.....

[paulzinho]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

In hindsight, maybe it was the right thing to do, but it just seemed' wrong' to be negotiating for all to hear with the team of the driver who had offended... Maybe it's just that we're not normally privy to such 'negotiations'. It did make me laugh when it was suggested by RBR that they would then start second behind Ocon.....

By the sounds of it opening up the FIA radio just shows what always happens... suspect Jean Todt back in his Ferrari days was a dab hand at this sort of thing!

Do wonder how Charlie would have handled it all... always struck me at how respected he was by everyone having done it for so long!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Maybe it's just that we're not normally privy to such 'negotiations'.

I think this is probably more often the case. I seem to recall we regularly hear teams telling their drivers to give the place back (usually followed by a 'what for man - that's a ****ing joke'), but we don't hear the race control / team discussion ahead of that.

[porsche962fan]

the irony would be if both DNF and Hamilton would lose the title for a non-race win of verstappen at Spa....

[Aysedasi]

To be honest, I'm surprised it was broadcast....

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

For the good of the F1 sporting contest - I hope Max wins the WDC.
For the good of the F1 sporting character - I hope Max is humiliated in the last race.

I sort of feel the same way. And it's sad that it has come to this.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

the irony would be if both DNF and Hamilton would lose the title for a non-race win of verstappen at Spa....

You're right - it would be irony because the actual reason for losing the title would be totally different.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

To be honest, I'm surprised it was broadcast....

On the other hand - how often do we hear people clamour for more openness on what actually goes on between teams and officials?

At the end of the day - I think Masi's apparent confusion (over Ocon's position) comes from the amount of information he his having to process.

He had a difficult situation emerging (the reason for the red flag), and so understandably his focus would be on that. Once he had the race suspended, he then considered the Ham/Ver incident - decided he would offer the chance to return the place - and then spoke to RBR before looking at the race order it seems.

[morninggents]

I thought the whole thing was a farce. The circuit was a disgrace to Formula One. Who the hell decided a circuit like that was fit for F1 needs their head examining. Street circuits, where the walls are so close to the racing lines, have no place in high speed formulae (I would except Monaco as the speeds there are somewhat lower).
The race director should be replaced for his incompetence. Masi, I believe, has no experience as a competitor and should be replaced by someone who has been an F1 driver.

[Anyopenroad]

Masi should also (knowing that he was being broadcast) spelled out the other alternative, ie “…or I will refer you to the stewards…”. Because that was the deal, it just wasn’t obvious to anyone not well-versed in F1’s rulebook.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Street circuits, where the walls are so close to the racing lines, have no place in high speed formulae (I would except Monaco as the speeds there are somewhat lower).

So from that - do you think Albert Park, Baku, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve and Marina Bay should all be removed from the F1 calendar?

(and Leclerc has clocked 201mph at Monaco)

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Masi should also (knowing that he was being broadcast) spelled out the other alternative, ie “…or I will refer you to the stewards…”. Because that was the deal, it just wasn’t obvious to anyone not well-versed in F1’s rulebook.

May be just me imagining it, but I thought I heard him say that? Didn't he say that when asked what would happen if they declined the kind offer?

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

May be just me imagining it, but I thought I heard him say that? Didn't he say that when asked what would happen if they declined the kind offer?

That isn’t what was broadcast on BBC Radio, but ofc they may not have broadcast it all. I’ve searched briefly for an actual transcript but without success.

Edit so here’s a link: https://youtu.be/FvG31AZItHs

Masi mentioned referral to stewards in his exchange with Mercedes, not the ‘offer’ to Red Bull

[crmalcolm]

Masi's take on it:

"It's very much a normal discussion that happens regularly on a number of occasions and has had all year and previously,” he said.

While some have been alarmed at what they felt was deal making between the referee and competitors, Masi see things very differently.

“I wouldn't call it a deal,” he explained. “From a race directors' perspective, I have no authority to actually instruct the teams to do anything.

“In that situation, I can give them an offer, the ability to do that, but the choice is theirs. The stewards are obviously empowered to impose penalties, but I can give them my perspective, so that's why I offered them the ability to give that position up.”

Masi said the circumstances of the situation seemed unusual only because the chat took place during a red flag period.

“The priority in any red flag situation is to make sure the drivers are safe, then to activate the recovery and the marshals to clean the track and so forth,” he added.

“So probably it seemed a bit elongated compared to normal. However, it's very much a normal discussion that takes place.

“When I saw it [the Verstappen/Hamilton incident] happen at Turn 2, I immediately suggested to the stewards that I'm going to give the team the ability to give that place back.

“The red flag obviously ensued very quickly thereafter, and that was absolutely the priority before we got going again. Being under a suspension, it was the ability to effectively correct that before we went racing again."

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

May be just me imagining it, but I thought I heard him say that? Didn't he say that when asked what would happen if they declined the kind offer?

Im pretty sure something to that effect was broadcast on the tv.

But as was said earlier...so much was going on its difficult to recall what happened and what order it happened in.

[crmalcolm]

So the radio messages were:

Masi: “I’m going to give you the opportunity to start from grid position two for this based on what occurred at turn 1-2,”
Wheatley:“Ok, thank you,” “We’ll have an internal discussion on that. We felt we were pushed off there. So thank you for that. If we can have a minute to think about it.”
Masi: “Yep, if you can come back to me within a minute or two, that would be great,”

Wheatley:“We would accept P2 on the basis that Ocon is on pole, correct?”
Masi: “Sorry. We would drop you back behind Hamilton,” “Back behind Lewis. That is my offer.”
Wheatley: “I need another minute,”
Wheatley: "We'll accept that. We understand the order is Ocon, Hamilton, Verstappen."
Masi: "Yes."

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So the radio messages were:

He also spoke to Mercedes. See the link in my post above.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

He also spoke to Mercedes. See the link in my post above.

Yes, it may well have been that I was thinking of...

[TrapezeArtist]

I'm beginning to feel like I was the only one who thought Masi was doing the right thing with his "negotiations". See https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/re...-souk/6856406/

I didn't actually see it as a negotiation at all. It was more "Give the place back or I'm sending you to the headmaster." It was just unfortunate that in the heat of the moment he didn't take account of Esteban Ocon. We're all human, even F1 people.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

May be just me imagining it, but I thought I heard him say that? Didn't he say that when asked what would happen if they declined the kind offer?

Yes, it was do this or the stewards look.

Just like if it hadn’t stopped the team could ask to give the place back and then the stewards don’t need to look. Difference is that it was during the stoppage and more time could be taken.

[Greem]

It annoyed me at the time, but I suspect that was just my emotions being manipulated by the producers deciding to play the radio calls out of context, with no advance warning. If the commentary team had prefaced it with "here's Michael Masi trying to sort out the restart order with Mercedes and Red Bull", that would have been much clearer.

As it was, it just appeared. No context, no explanation. I've spent enough time in race control (not F1!) myself to know that sometimes pragmatism is best, but...

They got me. The swine.

[Knowlesy]

The problem is broadcasting this stuff really. You can see what Masi is doing and it makes sense, but when you talk of "offers" you just open yourself to all sorts of flak. Especially when he seems so lacking in authority at times and indecisive.

There is no need for us to hear arsey team principals having it out with Masi imo. We all had a laugh at the emails episode at Silverstone but we should probably leave it there now.

Although perhaps a better compromise is to just unplug the Red Bull lads and leave them chattering away into the void.

[chillibowl]

some people dont like to see the sausage get made...but increasingly these days people have more interested in how their food is prepared.

while i like the transparency and broadcasts, i can appreciate that the delayed broadcasts/timing doesn't always speak to transparency but rather suggests manipulation of how they want the proceedings to be perceived (overly dramatized).

like the 'replay' graphic, they should included a graphic for a delayed radio message.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I'm beginning to feel like I was the only one who thought Masi was doing the right thing with his "negotiations".

I agree, but I don’t think he did it well. He seems hesitant on the radio, not in control. This may be unfair, but it’s the impression he gives. There’s an interesting contrast with the way he stamped on Horner criticising the Marshall - laying down the law, not making ‘offers’. That time Horner backed down so fast he almost fell over himself. I’m sure Masi is a good guy, he’s just not the clear, unrelenting authority needed at a time like this.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So the radio messages were:

Masi: “I’m going to give you the opportunity to start from grid position two for this based on what occurred at turn 1-2,”
Wheatley:“Ok, thank you,” “We’ll have an internal discussion on that. We felt we were pushed off there. So thank you for that. If we can have a minute to think about it.”
Masi: “Yep, if you can come back to me within a minute or two, that would be great,”

Wheatley:“We would accept P2 on the basis that Ocon is on pole, correct?”
Masi: “Sorry. We would drop you back behind Hamilton,” “Back behind Lewis. That is my offer.”
Wheatley: “I need another minute,”
Wheatley: "We'll accept that. We understand the order is Ocon, Hamilton, Verstappen."
Masi: "Yes."

It's like plea-bargaining. F1 is turning into a US style TV courtroom drama.