AUSTRIA'S TRIVIA - Lap 1

[AUSTRIA]

A) The first competition between some motor-cars has been the Paris-Rouen-Trail in 1894. It was not really a race, than a show of performance. A jury dicided, proving some properties as safety, comfort, easy usability and economy of the cars. The winner was not the fastest car, reaching Rouen. Half of the course, at the 'checkpoint' in Nantes all drivers took their dinner.

The question: In witch GP (!) there also was a dinner for the drivers, before continuing the race?


B) The 'Scuderia Milan(o): What was it, who where the people behind, who drove for them, their success in GP and non-GP races ....


C) The 'Alfa Corse' came back on 21. July 1946 at the GP des Nationes, Genf. But there were some victories by Alfa's before, in the same year:

30 May, Coup de la Resistance, Bois du Bologne, Paris, Wimille, Alfa Romeo 308
30 June, GP du Rousillon, Perpignan, Wimille, Alfa Romeo 308
7 July, GP de Bourgogne, Dijon, Alfa Romeo 308

On 8 or 9 (?) June at the Coupe Rene le Begue, St. Cloud, 'Nino' Farina drove the fastest lap with an Alfa Romeo. (was it the Type 158?). The first race of 1946 Raymond Sommer finished second with an Alfa Romeo 308C (?)

Give me statement on the entrants and the history of the mentioned cars. A good chance to score the 'Ten Tenth Bonus Point, isn't it?

Wish you a plenty of fun. So far ...

E.T.

[jarama]

c) 8 June - Coupe René Le Bègue, St.Cloud, Paris, F - 30 laps, 111.84 miles, 181.18 kms.

FL - Alfa Romeo 158, Dr.Giuseppe Farina, 3:08.4, 71.24 mph., 115.40 km/h.

Winner - Maserati 4CL, Raymond Sommer, 1:38:42.0, 67.00 mph., 108.54 km/h.
3rd,. - Robert Mazaud, Maserati 4CL.

Farina and Jean-Pierre Wimille, both of them at the wheel of Alfa Romeo 158, led the race but retired 'cause of clutch problems.

PP - Maser, Sommer, 2:59.3

22 April - Nice G.P., F - 65 laps, 129.81 miles, 210.29 kns. - 50.000 spectators

2nd. - Alfa Romeo 308, Raymond Sommer
Winner - Maserati 4CL (Scuderia Milano), Luigi Villoresi, 2:00:04.6, 64.86 mph, 105.07 km/h.

PP - Maser, Villoresi, 1:45.0

FL - Alfa, Sommer, 1:44.8, 68.60 mph, 111.13 km/h.

Other entrants: Robert Mazaud, Maserati 4CL, retired due to magneto trouble.
Paul Friderich, sports V12 Delahaye, was not allowed to start, enabling the event to be run as a scratch race, rather than on handicap.
Tazio Nuvolari, Maserati 4CL (Scuderia Milano), retired due to valve trouble when leading.
Among the entrants there were elderly Bugattis, too.

[Michael M]

A) 1906 GP at le Mans

[AUSTRIA]

jarama
Good details, but please have a look to my question again: 'Give me statement on the entrants and the history of the mentioned cars.' Offcourse I ment only the Alfas, I've listed above.

Michael
Sorry, no.

E.T.

[AUSTRIA]

Hey, folks, what's the matter ?

Are my questions to easy, no challenge for you? Really no good start for my trivia!

If nothing more comes, I'll post the answers on friday evening. Or does anybody need some help?

E.T.

[TimD]

I'm working on it, my friend, I'm working on it!

Don't think I've given up just yet.

[AUSTRIA]

Where are you, Tim?

First I will give you an answer to my question A):

It was in the year 1924, when Alfa Romeo won its first GPs and was the best team over the year. The prepared well the following season in expect to get the first World-Champion of makes. This Championship was instigated by the Italian motorsport association and included the GPs of Belge, France and Italy and also the Indy500. The curious reglement implicit demanded the participants to enter the GP of Italy, otherwise they would not get any points! And exactly this happened to Delage, winning the french GP and also the spanish GP, wich was not part of the WC. But back to our question of dining whilst a GP. The first GP in 1925 was at Spa. Only seven cars entered, four Delage have been welcomed freneticly by the Belgian spectators, completely ignoring the italian Alfa Romeo Team with 3 cars of their great first monoposto Type A, known also as 'P2'. But they would get the possibility for a revenge, as we will see. When the four Delage-cars retired and only the Alfa Romeos run, the constructor and manager of the Team Vittorio Jano decided to order all cars to the pit, where he had organized a dinner for his drivers while the pit-crew polished the cars for the victory-foto! It was the last success for the great Antonio Ascari, who was fatal injured after an accident in the next race, the french GP.

Fantastic stuff, isn't it?

And now, Tim, show'em the way! I'll give you and all others some hours more, but this must be the last prolongation for I want to start discussion, as demanded by Peter.

E.T.

[TimD]

Sorry, AUSTRIA, that was the part I was working on,

And I have to say I was getting nowhere! Congratulations. That's a wonderful story, and one I had certainly never heard before.

Better tell us what you know for the others, I think...

[AUSTRIA]

Uff, I've changed from Rookie to Racer state! But it wasn't my trivia, my first twenty posts are full, I guess.

Yeah Tim and all the other, I see it was really to hard or to common questioned. Lap 2 I will arrange 'light'. Let's see, what happens then ...

It will last some time, until I comment question B) because I am waiting for some new sources, approaching soon at my home, I hope.

As you know, question C) was the one I've no answer. I think, that Sommer and Wimille drove own cars, wich they had bought already before the war. Sommer drove his 8C-308 in 1939 in some GPs by private entry, when Alfa Corse entered the 158 voiturette. And Wimille? I don't know ... Perhaps private entry till Alfa Corse had the 158 ready, or the works entered it for the first time, to do anything?

This topic is not closed !!! If anybody out has some additional stuff, please post it.

E.T.

[AUSTRIA]

Resumèe

Question A)
No right answer, no 'additional' stuff. I thought, this story will be known by somebody. I have found it in a book by Guidotti and Guzzi, so it is in deed no secret.

Question B)
OK, it was no classical question, but is there really nobody, who has some interesting details about the 'Scuderia Milan(o)'? For me unbelievable, but we have to accept this matter of fact. For I am rather busy for the next weeks, it will last some time, until I will post, what I know about. The question will stay open for this time. So, if anybody of the new visitors wants to try ...

Question C)
jarama brought in some results, thank you. But it was not the answer to my question. So he will score only 1 point for the 'additional' stuff.

Obvious this lap was to hard, espacially for the first time!

See the results:

A) right answer ......................... 1 Point no one
A) storys, anectotes, other good stuff .. 1 Point no one

B) right answer ......................... 2 Points just open
A) storys, anectotes, other good stuff .. 1 Point just open

C) right answer ......................... 3 Points no one
A) storys, anectotes, other good stuff .. 1 Point to jarama

Tenth Point for Bonus: I'll give it to jarama; he has replied first of all in this new quiz.

E.T.

[Gerard]

Austria, all I could come up with regarding the Scuderia Milano is that they had some connection with Alfieri Maserati.
In 1950 their drivers were Bonetto and Comotti, driving a Maserati 4CLT/50
In 1951 it was Marimon and Godia-Sales with a Maserati 4CLT/50.
In 1953 they has Prince Bira and Chico Landi drving a Maserati A6GCM.

[Michael M]

Although late, hereafter some more details about Scuderia Milano:

1946:
Sommer (Alfa Romeo 308 C)
Nuvolari, Cortese, Ruggieri, Sommer, Villoresi, Pelassa, E Platé, Pagani, Louveau; sporadically Tadini, Taruffi, Chiron (Maserati 4CL, 4CM, 6CM)

1947:
Chiron, Louveau, Pagani, Pesci, Ruggieri, Sommer, Marchetti, Reg Parnell, 'Bira', Serafini, 'Levegh', Dell'Acqua, Grieco, Cassano, Jover; sporadically Cortese, E Platé (Maserati 4CL, 6CM, 8CL)

1948:
Fagioli, Taruffi, Landi, Pagani, Louveau, Bucci; sporadically Serafini, Varzi, Ruggieri (Maserati 4CL, 4CLT)

1949:
Taruffi, Farina (Maserati 4CLT/48)

The later years had been reported by Gerard already.

Except the Alfa for Raymond Sommer in 1946 (Sommer drove also Maseratis in the same year) all cars had been Maseratis. The only official factory entry (Officine Alfieri Maserati) during this period was in 1948 for one "Brooke", Maserati 4CLT/48 (never heard this name before!), so I believe the Scuderia Milano was the official works team, similar to Scuderia Ferrari for Alfa-Romeo before the war.



[This message has been edited by Michael M (edited 24 March 2000).]

[TimD]

Michael,

I wonder if you mean Leslie Brooke, who was entered for the GP d'Italia in 1948?

Whilst more frequently an ERA driver, he did on about 4 occasions run the Maser 4CLT/48 ch.no.1595, usually under the entry "Scuderia Ambrosiana".

[Michael M]

My sources only say "Brooke", no more details known. Frankly spoken, I never heard about Leslie Brooke before, but he is also listed for 1948 at Scuderia Ambrosiana. It may be possible that Leslie Brooke has been entered for one single race only by O.A.M. directly, may be due to bureaucratic reasons or similar.

Taking into account that this was really the only Maserati factory entry, and the fact that Scuderia Milano's team list includes much of the top drivers of that period, we really can consider them as (un)official Maserati works team.

We now have also the connection between question B and C. Austria stated that Raymond Summer finished 2nd on a Alfa-Romeo 308 in the first race of 1946. This is correct, it was the GP Nice on April 22. The next race 2 weeks later at Marseille he won with a Maserati. As stated above, Summer's Alfa-Romeo was the only non-Maserati entry of Scuderia Milano, and as this was the first GP after the war (except the Bois de Bologne event at Paris on 9.9.45 which was more or less a local event), it is obvious that Summer drove his prewar Alfa under Scuderia Milano entry, may be his Maserati was not ready or something similar. Also this hardens the theory that Scuderia Milano was principally a pure Maserati - meaning factory - team. However, if this is the case, it is surprising that so little information is available only, even from so competent sources like Austria, Tim, and Gerard. For most people real postwar racing started only in 1950, and there are a lot of gaps to be filled in the years before. Interesting stuff!

Coming back to question C and Alfa-Romeo. Jean-Pierre Wimille was member of the Alfa-Corse team from July 1946 on (although some races in 1947 he entered under his own Ecurie Wimille). In 1946 he also drove for the Ecurie Blanche et Noire on Alfa-Romeo, but I do not know whether this was for GP or sports cars. Wimille was Frenchman through and through, meaning that the only acceptable race car for him was Bugatti. For this reason he also refused to drive for the Mercedes team before the war. Also for the Bois-de-Boulogne event in 1945 he entered a Bugatti. Therefore is it is obvious that the AR 308 he entered in 1946 was either bought by him after the war only, or owned by someone else.

The car of Nino Farina at the Coupe Rene le Begue (8.6.46) was in fact a tipo 158, but that's all I could find out. Even the rather extensive privateer entry list for this period from which I extracted some of the a.m. details did not show Farina at all. However, he was works driver before the war and also team member of Alfa Corse later in 1946, so most probably it was a prewar factory car he was allowed to use.

[AUSTRIA]

Good work, buddies, go on doing! Thank you for this famous story, Michael.

Let me first say, that this kind of discussion was the target, I took aim with installing this 'trivia'. So let's enjoy it.

First to Brooke: Of course we talk from Leslie Brooke. This is worth to be an own story, so I don't treat it by that time. Just this: Officine Alfiere Maserati (short OAM) came back to GP racing in the year 1950 with Chiron and Rol. Brooke run three makes in the year 1948: Ferrari (166SC, three different entrants), ERA(entry by Brooke himself and the ERA-works, by that time already overtoken by Johnson) and Maserati. His Maseratis were entered by himself (4CLT/48; chassis-nr. 1596, owned by Reg Parnell or Ambrosiana), by Sc. Ambrosiana (4CLT/48; chassis-nr. 1595), and one time OAM as pretended. We have to consider, that our sources encircle several mistakes. F.e. I can list many failures, made by the famous Paul Sheldon in his opus 'A record of Grand Prix and Voitutrette Racing' - as for the Talbot-Lago - chassis numbers and entries! And I am sure, the 'Post-war pre-champ constructor history' (Michael obvious works with it, and I like to look at it often, too), generally very well recherched, as I think, has some mistakes. On the other hand, the OAM kept the chassis-nr. 1597 by its own, selling all the other cars, the built in 1948 (chassis nr. 1593 - 1595 Ambrosiana, 1696 Ambrosiana or Reg Parnell, 1598 'BIRA'). I'm sure, there is no connection between Brooke and Scuderia Milano in this matter, although the Scuderia was a semi-worksteam. But of course I can fail.

Sommer: (also worth a own story and already in work): The Alfa Romeo 308 with Sommer, entered by Scuderia Milano, did not start! (This entry might have been, what Michael calls a 'due to bureaucratic reasons or similar'. The Nice-GP (finished second) certain was a private entry by Sommer himself! He owned a ex-works-308, which he had already run in pre-war GP's, while the Alfa Corse long ago had changed to voiturette-racing with the 158. More infos about the pre-war races: look to the famous site from Leif Snellman: http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/main.htm

I'm sure, Michael, there is much information available on the Scuderia Milano, but it is a hard work, doing the research on it, because the stuff is so spread over many sources. I have started a comprehensiv research for books about this topic. The result: nothing! But, someone told me, if it was easy, be sure, somebody else would have already done it! Indeed interesting stuff! I hope, I can bring more light in this matter, after some more books, that I already have ordered, will have appeared at my home. (yet next week, if I am lucky)

So Gerard and Michael have done the most work. Believe me, I'm very happy about the discussion has started now. Let me add finally, the Scuderia Milano was headed by the Brothers Ruggeri. I don't know the exact spelling, maybe Ruggieri is right. Perhaps the driver Ruggieri (mentioned by Michael above) was one of them. In the year 1950 the Ruggeris charged Speluzzi to modify their Maserati, called from now on Maserati-Speluzzi and later Milano M01.

Farina: My presume: Private entry with the 308C; works-entry with the 158; the Ecurie Blanche & Noir run an antiqueted Alfa Romeo 8C-2300, known under the name 'Monza' under several drivers, changing from race to race.

Good work, buddies, go on doing!

E.T.


[This message has been edited by AUSTRIA (edited 25 March 2000).]

[AUSTRIA]

Well four points more for Michael M. Very interesting discussion, coming late, but early enough.

Why four points ? I have counted exactly, but I will try not once more ...

So we have four points remaining. I will put'em into the JACKPOT.