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Old 8 May 2013, 20:53 (Ref:3244477)   #1546
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Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice View Post
And why does the ACO insist on the cars looking to look as if they could carry a passenger?
The only mono-sit car allowed was the WR. But two sits remain the ACO and sportcars philosophy.
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Old 8 May 2013, 22:08 (Ref:3244495)   #1547
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Originally Posted by hondafan37 View Post
I agree with you, and this is what I was asking.
I think that you misunderstood what I said.
I do not want road cars. What is a road car?
A BMW M3, Corvette, Porsche 911, Viper, Ferrari 458 are road cars,
but the late 90s GT1, Corvette LMP1 Evo, LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Pagani Huayra are not really road cars, beyond some are homologated to the street.
I use LaFerrari, Mc Laren P1, Pagani Huayra only as an example of the form what I want for the LMP1. I do not said that this cars have race in LMP1.
Neither I want that the cars have homologation of street for racing in LMP1.
just look at a picture of an Audi r18 and a Porsche 911 GT1 98, and you will see that I have reason. The Porsche 911 GT1 98 is very much nice that R18.
The trouble is the manufacturers move the goal posts as they did with with the '90's GT1 cars which ultimately became the the Toyota GT1 which looks more akin to an R18 than a road car
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Old 9 May 2013, 01:52 (Ref:3244594)   #1548
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Originally Posted by deggis View Post
SOME are? Aren't they all? You still don't seem to want to understand the different between pure racing car and a road legal super/track car. 911 EVO is one of my favourite racing cars but it is only a half prototype. Look at the actual LMPs of that era, they already started to have some features of current LMPs, raised noses etc (and of course that one dates back to 1993...).
Of course I understand the different between pure racing car and a road legal super/track car. But in my point of view, I do not care if the performance is lower if the car look more beautiful.
I was talking about 911 GT1 98 not 911 EVO, Both of cars are very beautiful but they are different cars.
You do not forget that this discussion start because some people here think that the new Porsche LMP1 look horrible like the Toyota and Audi.
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Old 9 May 2013, 01:59 (Ref:3244596)   #1549
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The trouble is the manufacturers move the goal posts as they did with with the '90's GT1 cars which ultimately became the the Toyota GT1 which looks more akin to an R18 than a road car
I agree with you, but the Toyota GT1 not comply with the rules I wrote on the previous page.
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Old 9 May 2013, 04:04 (Ref:3244627)   #1550
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Originally Posted by hondafan37 View Post
I was talking about 911 GT1 98 not 911 EVO, Both of cars are very beautiful but they are different cars.
Mistake, I also meant the EVO 98. But I still count it as a half-prototype.
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Old 9 May 2013, 06:14 (Ref:3244648)   #1551
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Originally Posted by hondafan37 View Post
Of course I understand the different between pure racing car and a road legal super/track car. But in my point of view, I do not care if the performance is lower if the car look more beautiful.
I was talking about 911 GT1 98 not 911 EVO, Both of cars are very beautiful but they are different cars.
You do not forget that this discussion start because some people here think that the new Porsche LMP1 look horrible like the Toyota and Audi.
I'm not sure if you are referring to my posts, but just to be clear: My issue is not with the looks of the Toyota or the Audi per say (although neither can be called beautiful in my opinion), but with the fins and the holes over/side of wheels. It's those two aberrations that make the designs really quite hard to stomach, not the fact that the LMP1's donít look like road cars. The 956/962 did not look like a road car, but it was beautiful to my eyes. The same can be said for the 917. Many Ferrari prototypes were stunning. (512, 312,333P)
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Old 9 May 2013, 08:35 (Ref:3244685)   #1552
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I agree. Without the goofy fins and fender holes the lmps looked great.
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Old 9 May 2013, 12:46 (Ref:3244789)   #1553
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It's worth noting that when prototypes looked like extreme sports cars, rather than... I don't know what, the manufacturers didn't feel the need to plaster their own branding all over the cars like these days. Now people would see these cars, including the new Porsche as LMPs, back then it would be identifyable first and formost as an extreme Porsche model. That allowed title sponsorship without sacrificing manufacturer's brand identity.
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Old 9 May 2013, 12:59 (Ref:3244796)   #1554
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That allowed title sponsorship without sacrificing manufacturer's brand identity.
I get your point but not this conclusion. Look at GrC era cars: lots of title sponsors, no road car looks.

I think now it is more of a case nobody offering them (Toyota/Audi, but not Pug since it had Total) large enough bag of money, so of course they'll then fill the fin ad space with their own stickers.

Last edited by deggis; 9 May 2013 at 13:05.
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Old 9 May 2013, 13:34 (Ref:3244812)   #1555
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Originally Posted by deggis View Post
I get your point but not this conclusion. Look at GrC era cars: lots of title sponsors, no road car looks.
I disagree. I see the 962 as a direct continuation of the 917, 908, 906, 904, 550 lineage.

Of course I'm not going to claim that this is the only or main reason why we don't have the kind of title sponsorship that produced all those fantastic liveries in the past (with a notable exception of Gulf!). But my point stands: for the most cars aren't identifiable with car brands they represent.

Actually, just a couple of days ago I read an article on Audi R18 on Autoblog.com. It's always more interesting to read the comments, as the public there is generally not very knowledgeable about racing. One of the commenters posted something like "The car looks so un-Audi". That kinda struck me, as such thought never even crossed my mind.

Last edited by Pandamasque; 9 May 2013 at 13:42.
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Old 9 May 2013, 13:49 (Ref:3244819)   #1556
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Originally Posted by Pandamasque View Post

Actually, just a couple of days ago I read an article on Audi R18 on Autoblog.com. It's always more interesting to read the comments, as the public there is generally not very knowledgeable about racing. One of the commenters posted something like "The car looks so un-Audi". That kinda struck me, as such thought never even crossed my mind.
We get lost in that, don't we. No one would ever say that about an Audi F1 car, because they don't expect it to look like one. But prototypes have covered wheels, headlamps, a roof, a passenger seat (ahem). As I explained earlier, they were originally called "prototypes" as they were the prototypes of models that manufacturers intended to sell after racing at Le Mans.

Now the only thing that's "prototype" is some of the technology, rather than the cars themselves, but there needs to be a link.

The 962 had indicators, a stock block engine, and a Porsche badge stuck on the front with immense pride. It became a Porsche.

Is it possible to do that with a current LMP1? The ACO need to ask themselves that. They need to remember why Le Mans is celebrating 90 years this year...why it's survived a World War, a couple of economic depressions and oil crises.

Two word answer to that. Road. Relevance.
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Old 9 May 2013, 14:01 (Ref:3244825)   #1557
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+1 to all of the above ^
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Old 9 May 2013, 14:03 (Ref:3244828)   #1558
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+1 to all of the above ^
+1 to all of the above + future sustainability
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Old 9 May 2013, 14:14 (Ref:3244832)   #1559
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I disagree. I see the 962 as a direct continuation of the 917, 908, 906, 904, 550 lineage.
I said GrC, or does that now equal to 962... Don't look at 956/962 only, altough I don't see how that differs from any other GrC car except for it's legendary status. Especially towards the end of 1990s the basic form was getting quite similar across all the cars (front, the shape of the cockpit). Remove the liveries from the cars and they start to look quite similar especially if viewed from the front and zero brand indentity in the shapes alone.

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Actually, just a couple of days ago I read an article on Audi R18 on Autoblog.com. It's always more interesting to read the comments, as the public there is generally not very knowledgeable about racing. One of the commenters posted something like "The car looks so un-Audi". That kinda struck me, as such thought never even crossed my mind.
I bet he didn't even know it was a race car let alone realized it races at LM. Always surprises how clueless people are on these general car news sites and on Youtube comments and how unseriously they view the whole racing aspect.

And if brand identity means blatant Nascar-like stuff like this, then no thanks


Last edited by deggis; 9 May 2013 at 14:21.
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Old 9 May 2013, 14:19 (Ref:3244833)   #1560
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The only mono-sit car allowed was the WR. But two sits remain the ACO and sportcars philosophy.
They used to have to carry a spare tyre too , but cant remember exactly when that stopped ?
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