[Official] Hungarian Grand Prix 2016: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[S griffin]

Shows the quality of the racing when there's only two talking points.

IMO, Max was just within the rules with his defence and I feel the Kimi of old would have just bullied his way through, but it's probably a sign if his waning talent. He either fails to get past or crashes into them, a la Bottas last year.

For me, the rule is you have to go in the pits to get info from the team and that seems fair enough, but the Nico one, to me, seems more unfair because even without telemetry on the pitwall, the team still would have known about it from Nico telling them.

Anyway Nico must win in Germany if he's to stem the Hamilton tide

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

IMO, Max was just within the rules with his defence and I feel the Kimi of old would have just bullied his way through, but it's probably a sign if his waning talent. He either fails to get past or crashes into them, a la Bottas last year.

Agreed.

For me I see one defensive move and then MV turning left for the corner.

Not entirely sure why turning in for the corner is being deemed a (second) defensive move. His choice is either take the corner or drive in a straight line forever. Surely the rules allow him to turn for the corner.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Agreed.

For me I see one defensive move and then MV turning left for the corner.

Not entirely sure why turning in for the corner is being deemed a (second) defensive move. His choice is either take the corner or drive in a straight line forever. Surely the rules allow him to turn for the corner.

Indeed, he's just smart enough to time his one defensive move just before turning in.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Indeed, he's just smart enough to time his one defensive move just before turning in.

interesting point. was he aware enough to work out the timing to keep it within the rules or was he just fortunate that it just happen to work out like that?

that would have been a great question to have asked him rather than the click bait questions both he and kimi ended up getting post race.

'did you hear what Kimi said about you?'...this stuff seems worse when its a bland race and not much to talk about so i guess i cant really blame reporters for asking inane questions...but i will!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Agreed.

For me I see one defensive move and then MV turning left for the corner.

Not entirely sure why turning in for the corner is being deemed a (second) defensive move. His choice is either take the corner or drive in a straight line forever. Surely the rules allow him to turn for the corner.

I really don't care much about this particular conflict (Max, Kimi, both are interesting for their own reasons) other than the truth... or at least what I believe is my (hopefully) relatively unbiased version of it.

What these two videos. There may be better examples but I didn't care to do an extensive search.

First, on board with Daniel Ricciardo. I am not sure when this video was made. Likely during practice or qualifying. Maybe even last year. Regardless, you will see that the entry for turn two is more middle track with a later apex. Now we can have all types of discussions about qualifying line, racing line, defending line, etc. But it looks like the optimal line is not an early apex.

https://youtu.be/rTqFd-E6_V4?t=1m13s

Now look at the video of the incident in question. Max exits turn 1 and tracks out with Kimi behind him. As they approach turn 2 Max is maybe slightly left on the approach (maybe defending the inside?) and then makes a good strong move to the right toward what is likely the more classic wide entry for turn two. Then he makes a second move back to the left. Note the quantity of rubber on the track on where Max turns in and where he apexes. He is taking an unusual line. Why? Because he was defending the outside (first move) and inside (second move).

https://youtu.be/ga2kLuTj_Q8

IMHO, he clearly was making two moves and the second was not simply "turning in" because it was to take a "new" and obviously defensive line. Clearly that is not allowed.

Richard

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I really don't care much about this particular conflict (Max, Kimi, both are interesting for their own reasons) other than the truth... or at least what I believe is my (hopefully) relatively unbiased version of it.

What these two videos. There may be better examples but I didn't care to do an extensive search.

First, on board with Daniel Ricciardo. I am not sure when this video was made. Likely during practice or qualifying. Maybe even last year. Regardless, you will see that the entry for turn two is more middle track with a later apex. Now we can have all types of discussions about qualifying line, racing line, defending line, etc. But it looks like the optimal line is not an early apex.

https://youtu.be/rTqFd-E6_V4?t=1m13s

Now look at the video of the incident in question. Max exits turn 1 and tracks out with Kimi behind him. As they approach turn 2 Max is maybe slightly left on the approach (maybe defending the inside?) and then makes a good strong move to the right toward what is likely the more classic wide entry for turn two. Then he makes a second move back to the left. Note the quantity of rubber on the track on where Max turns in and where he apexes. He is taking an unusual line. Why? Because he was defending the outside (first move) and inside (second move).

https://youtu.be/ga2kLuTj_Q8

IMHO, he clearly was making two moves and the second was not simply "turning in" because it was to take a "new" and obviously defensive line. Clearly that is not allowed.

Richard

So than we are down to how you have to enter the corner. Stewards will not go there and for good reason.

I think Verstappen's moves were right on the edge. For me and possibly I'm not completely unbiased, it was still okay (just), for others it wasn't. Verstappen knows this, he know he is on the edge and he has the level racing head to make these decision and moves while racing. This extra mental capacity is why he's such a good racer.

For me in an era where overtaking is merely DRS-ing your way past and a lot of F1 veterans don't remember how to overtake without DRS (not aimed at Kimi cause at this track with these cars overtaking is close to impossible) it's a breath of fresh air to see drivers fighting on the track again.

If they got rid of DRS, or at least half it's effectiveness and have cars that can follow one another, we would have lot's of fights like these. Unfortunately that boat has left the harbour with the 2017 rules.

[Nikki Katz]

Just watched the race having hidden from the result for a day. So, were there any overtakes at all? I don't remember any but I did sleep through bits.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

So than we are down to how you have to enter the corner. Stewards will not go there and for good reason.

Actually I believe that is exactly how it does work! From article 27.6 of the sporting regulations...

More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

Note it talks about "position off-line" and "racing line". And we know that racing lines includes entry into the turn. Who defines this? The Stewards as they examine each potential offense case by case. I will say the rule is still vague which likely makes it hard for Stewards to decide. But that is why they exists vs. trying to cover 100% of all scenarios in the rules.

His first move to the right was to defend off line and the second move was the same.

Richard

[bella]

i think on the whole max is and always has been quite borderline with some of his moves. where you draw that line is difficult, and i don't think it's a fixed definition.

i think the way to read the rules is that rightly or wrongly, if that behaviour causes an accident, then the letter of the law will be applied. if it doesn't cause an accident, then it's ok unless it's really blatent.

[Taxi645]

His first move to the right was to defend off line and the second move was the same.

You could also say his drifting right was the racing line and he just steered in early for turn 2.

I think many commentators got their panties in a twist because of the Kimi onboard footage. From that perspective it looks like Verstappen is heavily weaving. But it is actually Kimi doing the weaving, Verstappens move is quite subtle. I think stewards take that into account, he doesn´t move across completely. In fact he initially left Kimi enough room on the inside, it´s just that Kimi went to the outside in a reaction.

That´s what so cool about Verstappen´s defence, that although he defending, he is taking the initiative. He make small unexpected move and most attackers will fall for the trick.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

i think on the whole max is and always has been quite borderline with some of his moves. where you draw that line is difficult, and i don't think it's a fixed definition.

i think the way to read the rules is that rightly or wrongly, if that behaviour causes an accident, then the letter of the law will be applied. if it doesn't cause an accident, then it's ok unless it's really blatent.

I hear what you are saying, but my beef with that logic is that (outside of the "blatant" scenario which is difficult to define because for some this Max/Kimi example is blatant) it somewhat requires the passing driver to hit the car in front to prove the point. If a driver continues to get away with this type of behavior, it may make him harder to pass as the following driver knows both the style of the leading driver and history of lack of punishment, so the likelihood of making it work (able to get around even with two moves) is slim or he has to crash and likely DNF (win the battle, but loose the war). Even this scenario Kimi touched Max and damaged his wing (can arguably have ruined future pass attempts). How large must the crash be?

In reality, Max's moves were not huge, so they almost seem innocuous. So it seems (and apparently is) easy to just not call it out as a "breaking the rules". But, repeating myself, they IMHO were not innocuous. Kimi would probably agree with me. But he is probably very biased!

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

In reality, Max's moves were not huge, so they almost seem innocuous. So it seems (and apparently is) easy to just not call it out as a "breaking the rules"....

and thats where my take on it stems from...both kept on racing so more of a racing incident so carry on situation.

on a straight line it is a very clear cut rule that two moves are not allowed...approaching a turn, in my mind it is inherently a bit more difficult to assess.

to add to that, once you start linking corners into a complex then how many moves are you allowed per that complex?

rather does the defensive line he takes through turn 1 count as his first move, his move between turn 1 and 2 is his second move and the line choice in turn 2 being his third move?

imo, one has to allow for (or help create) the possibility of sustained racing when battles extends over several sections of track and/or over the course of multiple laps.

fortunately for the stewards, sustained battles hardly ever happens in F1.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

fortunately for the stewards, sustained battles hardly ever happens in F1.

So I think part of why many are quick to ignore what happened with respect to Max's driving style is that we see those types of battle so infrequently that we (as fans) don't want to do anything to jeopardize occurrences in the future. For the most part it "was" great racing. It was exciting to watch. It would have been even better if it had been clean and to the rules. I just feel bad that the sport is so desperate for excitement that it may start to turn a blind eye to rules on occasion. There are other series to watch if you want to see that type of racing. I even felt a bit dirty as I enjoyed watching some "rubbin is racin'" going on later in the day with some banging between Porsche and Audi in the WEC race!

To other points made above, I think we tend to try to make it all harder than it is to judge. I don't think everyone will always agree, but it's not an impossible task. However I do believe there is likely tremendous pressure on Stewards to NOT apply the rules at times. Maybe this is just one occurrence where the stewards got it wrong. Maybe next time they will get it right!

As I mentioned above, Max doesn't need to drive like this. He is good enough without it. Question is, what will his legacy be? Maybe I am naive to be hoping for a new legend that doesn't participate in dirty tricks to get ahead (Schumacher parking at Monaco or Senna crashing out Prost for example). Especially when possessing enough raw talent to succeed without the dirty deeds.

I am all talked out on this topic. We all are not going to agree. Last thing from me is a link to an article.

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/132362-...rect-raikkonen

I like how Max says he only made a single move! But in his shoes, what would you expect him to say. I cheated and I got away with it?

Richard

[chillibowl]

nothing wrong with enjoying a guilty pleasure now and then.

but i agree not much more to talk about here...moving on to other questions about the weekend:

what is going on with Williams these last few races? putting aside Massa's problems stemming from a car rebuild, Bottas also seemed well off the pace as they really struggle to extract any sort of performance out of their car. quite the turnaround from their early season form!

also is Ferrari imploding?

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

nothing wrong with enjoying a guilty pleasure now and then.

but i agree not much more to talk about here...moving on to other questions about the weekend:

what is going on with Williams these last few races? putting aside Massa's problems stemming from a car rebuild, Bottas also seemed well off the pace as they really struggle to extract any sort of performance out of their car. quite the turnaround from their early season form!

also is Ferrari imploding?

Williams don't seem to go well where straight line speed is not important.
Having said that their performance seems to have dropped off in recent times.They might be putting most of their effort into next years car with a major rule change.

[S griffin]

I won't deny Max was moving, but he wasn't moving off line and that's why he was within the letter of the law. TBH, I think Kimi was too busy concentrating in front, he misjudged the braking

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Williams don't seem to go well where straight line speed is not important.
Having said that their performance seems to have dropped off in recent times.They might be putting most of their effort into next years car with a major rule change.

indeed, but switching so early to 2017 is a big chance when FI is still within shouting distance of 4th on the WCC table. potentially fortunate for them is that FI may be making a similar assessment as well.

a side thought, i wonder how much of their (and maybe add FI and STR to this) dip in form is related to several races being held within such a short span of time?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

indeed, but switching so early to 2017 is a big chance when FI is still within shouting distance of 4th on the WCC table. potentially fortunate for them is that FI may be making a similar assessment as well.

a side thought, i wonder how much of their (and maybe add FI and STR to this) dip in form is related to several races being held within such a short span of time?

IMHO, a big part of this is that those teams with limited resources (and maybe even some with no real financial worries) have had to switch their attention to next season. With such a major overhaul of the design rules being implemented, most of the teams will be needing all their backroom people concentrating on next year's cars not the current ones.

[wolfhound]

McLaren are the team who poses the biggest threat to those above them as that Honda motor improves. Where as the chassis seems to be pretty good possibly top four with a decent motor.

[S griffin]

Yes it's not such a strange sight to see both McLaren-Hondas in the top ten anymore

[chillibowl]

totally! the Mclarens are looking better and better with every race.

i would expect them to pass STR (and their 2015 Ferrari engine) in points soon enough but if they can get themselves into the FI and Williams mix by seasons end that would be an amazing accomplishment.

[BSchneiderFan]

I do wonder how much of a handicap it is to Honda only having two engines running around.

[chillibowl]

all things being equal i would think the more data available the faster the development.

that said, the deal Honda have with Mclaren (i believe) is for free engines, paying part of the drivers wages, and paying Mclaren for sponsorship.

so while it might be a handicap to Honda, there is a benefit to Mclaren that all of Honda's resources are aimed on one team...only time will tell if this was the correct approach i guess.

i am curious to know what types of talks RB had with Honda and if they were looking for a similar deal as to the one Honda has with Mclaren...maybe why Mclaren were so adamant about Honda maintaining their exclusivity.