End of the road for Ford Falcon and Holden Commodore

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Forda

Unless we're set to see SUV's, etc lumbering and rolling around Bathurst, etc as part of our 'premier series' in the future?

Heaven forbid.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

V8 Supercars has a horrible lack of foresight.

It was clear already in 2007: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98615 that Falcon vs Commodore only was an unacceptable format...

I think you're being a bit harsh there. Back in the day, AVESCO had discussions with Toyota and Mitsubishi about getting into the game, both looked at it long and hard and supposedly Mitsubishi got VERY close to jumping in - then the decision to cease local production came along and that was that.

Then of course around COTF time there were discussions with a raft of manufacturers, Nissan & Volvo jumped in others chose not to. Clearly those that chose not to would have their own reasons for doing so but the various head honchos at V8 Supercars over the years have talked about getting other manufacturers involved and gone down the path with those manufacturers.

The fact that it hasn't borne fruit (other than Nissan & Volvo with maybe half a jump for Benz) is another thing entirely......

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The fact that it hasn't borne fruit (other than Nissan & Volvo with maybe half a jump for Benz) is another thing entirely......

Why wasn't the BMW E34 540i (with suitable increase in stroke or bore) invited to compete in 1993? Surely that was inexcusable given BMW's commitment to the ATCC.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Why wasn't the BMW E34 540i (with suitable increase in stroke or bore) invited to compete in 1993? Surely that was inexcusable given BMW's commitment to the ATCC.

Don’t know but that was well before both 2007 & the V8 Supercar company that you referred to in your post as lacking in foresight.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Why wasn't the BMW E34 540i (with suitable increase in stroke or bore) invited to compete in 1993? Surely that was inexcusable given BMW's commitment to the ATCC.

BMW were racing something else (M3) at the time, they made their choice

[My Name Is Dwight]

Originally Posted by peckstar

BMW were racing something else (M3) at the time, they made their choice

regardless of if you liked the direction they went, you can't say that it was BMWs choice. They weren't invited.

[Jack65]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Why wasn't the BMW E34 540i (with suitable increase in stroke or bore) invited to compete in 1993? Surely that was inexcusable given BMW's commitment to the ATCC.

Basically the V8 formula was forced upon CAMS by Ford and Holden in cahoots with Channel 7. While a concession was made to allow the M3 to continue to race in 1993, in reality it was never going to be allowed to be competitive, and was probably only allowed in to snuff out a 2 litre series, of which BMW were likely to be the biggest supporter. At that stage Ford and Holden had a combined 50% market share (how times have changed), so thus more pulling power and no intention of sharing the limelight with or playing second fiddle to any other manufacturers.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by peckstar

BMW were racing something else (M3) at the time, they made their choice

BMW didn't make that choice for 1993, they wanted to race the E36 but were not allowed.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by My Name Is Dwight

regardless of if you liked the direction they went, you can't say that it was BMWs choice. They weren't invited.

Not in 1993, they raced together with an M3

[Jack65]

IIRC the team already had an E36 which Paul Morris drove in the 1992 Adelaide GP support races.

[Jack65]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Not in 1993, they raced together with an M3

They were almost reluctantly invited. Were never going to be allowed to be part of the series long term.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Not in 1993, they raced together with an M3

Because they weren't given an alternative

They wanted to upgrade to the E36 body shape but that was denied.

Originally Posted by Jack65

IIRC the team already had an E36 which Paul Morris drove in the 1992 Adelaide GP support races.

They did, but using it in 1993 wasn't allowed, for reasons that never made any sense.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Jack65

Basically the V8 formula was forced upon CAMS by Ford and Holden in cahoots with Channel 7. While a concession was made to allow the M3 to continue to race in 1993, in reality it was never going to be allowed to be competitive, and was probably only allowed in to snuff out a 2 litre series, of which BMW were likely to be the biggest supporter. At that stage Ford and Holden had a combined 50% market share (how times have changed), so thus more pulling power and no intention of sharing the limelight with or playing second fiddle to any other manufacturers.

Can't believe this is all a quarter of a century ago, but when you view things as they were at the time and with Ford and Holden being so dominant domestically, the V8 series made sense and obviously worked and before long there was a truly professional series with stability.

BMW was never a big local contributor. If you go back and read about their exploits in Group A and Group C in AMC magazine, really they relied on commercial sponsorship for the most part and BMW just facilitated making cars and parts available. Nice but nothing to build a series around.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

It's hard to compare to elsewhere in the world. We've always forged our own path in terms of touring car racing for the most part, but adopted other rulesets when it suited.

The problem we now have, is whilst everyone wants V8s, they also want cars that are RWD and V8-powered, and Ford Vs Holden. That may still be sustainable for the next couple of years at best, but at some point, it'll start to unravel when people and sponsors fall into that mindset of "Why are we racing cars that are no longer sold?" or "We want current/relatable cars to carry our branding". Are the NZV8s having this issue yet? They're still using VEIIs and FGs, and the previous-gen Camry.

The planning for the next phase of touring car racing in this country needs to be already underway. The catagory should also be 100% transparent to the fanbase on where they're heading with it.

In Argentina they have been successful with their Turrismo Carretera still being based around sedans from the 1960s and 70s. I guess Supercars could take the same approach living in the past if they want. I think they are in a real pickle because over the past 25 years, especially in the past 5, the large affordable family sedan market segment has mostly evaporated. Sedans seem more out there on the extremes, either small economy sedans for first time buyers or luxury sedans from a few manufacturers. It's all SUVs or Utes now.

The other question now that the car market has changed so much in Australia is of those big manufacturers at the top of sales sheets, what exactly if any is their interest in motorsport currently. If there isn't any interest, then why waste your time catering to them? Do whatever the hell you want to appeal to the crowds in that case.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

In Argentina they have been successful with their Turrismo Carretera still being based around sedans from the 1960s and 70s. I guess Supercars could take the same approach living in the past if they want.

We already in Australia have a hugely popular category called Touring Car Masters which often supports the V8s race meetings, and indeed features many ex V8 Supercars drivers such as Richards, Bowe, Johnson jnr and Seton. We also have an enormous range of Historic Touring Car categories.

[GTRMagic]

A car dealer being up front...

Video Here

[Forda]

Dealer putting on a brave face there.

It's going to be much harder for them now, without having a volume seller.

[Umai Naa]

You wouldn't consider Holden as your flagship franchise anymore.

[GTRMagic]

A Different View On Holden & Its Products

Holden v’s ACCC

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

A Different View On Holden & Its Products

Holden v’s ACCC

Wouldn't surprise me at all to see Holden either canned by GM or sold off. Now with no local manufacturing going on it's nothing more than a nameplate with declining sales. The new Commodore might be ok but in five years it's going to be an orphan product anyways with Opel and Vauxhall onto their new lives with Peugeot.

[peckstar]

Holden drops to No 8 on the sales list in Feb, just 30 ahead of another importer, Kia

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Holden drops to No 8 on the sales list in Feb, just 30 ahead of another importer, Kia

Why would ya buy one? Hence I kept my old VE SS

[peckstar]

Holden Commodore gets 7-year warranty

same as kia - coincidence

[Go Harder.]

Will Holden exist in 7 years time?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Go Harder.

Will Holden exist in 7 years time?

Are you suggesting general motors will give up on Australia and say "too hard" or "can't be bothered" like they did with Europe?

USA, USA, we're number 1!