[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[karting]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Didn't he damage it himself in qualifying?

He did. He crashed into the pit wall coming into the pits

[S griffin]

Yes, really surprised that happened

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by karting

He did. He crashed into the pit wall coming into the pits

That's what I thought.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes, really surprised that happened

Bearing in mind the nature of his physical limitation, I don't think there is any reason for surprise.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Bearing in mind the nature of his physical limitation, I don't think there is any reason for surprise.

Actually I think it should be a surprise. I am giving him and everyone else involved the benefit of doubt that he is capable of driving the car safely. If however, the lingering impacts of his rally accident is a safety risk then he should not be in the car. The implication of the quote above is... don't be surprised if he stuffs it because he hasn't recovered from his accident.

Now... the remaining question is... Can he drive well enough to deserve an F1 seat. Meaning is he physically capable and he still mentally "has it". That is a valid question. There also seems to be a bit of "he needs more seat time". Well does he need more seat time to get familiar with the car, or does he need more seat time to lean how to race again?

Nobody could argue with the former. I think that due to shortage of spares, Russell got more time in the car during testing. Given he has a full race weekend under his belt, Kubica should be "up to speed now". As to the later, F1 should not be "on the job training" for prior F1 drivers.

But it is too early to say what is going on for sure. Lets see what happens at the next race. What will the gap be between the Williams drivers. This assumes they have equivalent and healthy equipment. It seems like that was not the case for the first race.

Richard

[S griffin]

Well he has still not fully recovered. That is no surprise. He obviously wanted to see where he is at. I hate to say it, but I don’t think he’ll be in F1 for much longer. Maybe he does need time, as the talent is still there, but that’s not enough anymore

For me Russell deserves a better seat than that Williams. Maybe by the next race Kubica will be closer, as I said talent is still there.

[Skam85]

Let's maybe give him more than one ill-prepared race weekend shall we?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by karting

He did. He crashed into the pit wall coming into the pits

Kubica crashed into the pit wall in free practice, crashed into a wall in qualifying, crashed into the back of Gasly in turn 1 in the race.

[S griffin]

Not like him to crash. He’s still learning, so hope he gets better for the next round

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Not like him to crash. He’s still learning, so hope he gets better for the next round

To put it in perspective when Di Resta sub’d at Williams everyone raves about what a great job he did when in reality he droned around at the back off the pace - not surprising just how it is. No testing = no pace. Fail to prepare / prepare to fail

[Born Racer]

I think it's far too early to judge Kubica. He has a good yardstick in Russell. Yes, he's a rookie, but an obvious talent. It should not be seen as a bad Robert Kubica performance if he is beaten, but hopefully not thrashed. I hope it does not end up a situation similar to what Michael Schumacher faced at Mercedes; it seems like being out of it for a while might make you rusty and not quite back to the same point.

[S griffin]

Well Kubica is still recovering. He would have struggled against any talented young team mate, not just Russell. Schumacher was incredibly rusty when he returned, which was a shame. Kubica it’s 50/50 whether he goes well or not. I think the injury is holding him back more

[Graz]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Well Kubica is still recovering. He would have struggled against any talented young team mate, not just Russell. Schumacher was incredibly rusty when he returned, which was a shame. Kubica it’s 50/50 whether he goes well or not. I think the injury is holding him back more

He's not recovering, he has as much from the arm as he'll ever have. I guess he could still be adapting but that's a different thing.

In response to the other threads, I'm not writing Kubica off yet but he will never be anything like he was, or even close which might be clouding people's thoughts. Think of him as an Ericsson in a Kubica body in terms of performance - the odd decent drive here and there but just not quite there - which is pretty bloody impressive given what he's been through. He's a superhero in my eyes.

Bear in mind Russell has a lot of recent racing miles under his belt with the pretty spicy F2 cars. Kubica has more scope to find a little more than Russell, which isn't easy in a really poor car that missed the first week of testing and is useless too. It wouldn't be a surprise if Russell is quicker because he should be for various reasons, one of which is he has 2 arms, another being he is clearly very good and would ask questions of Kubica Mk 1.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

It is a worrying sign that Russell, a total F1 rookie, was quicker than the much more experienced Kubica.

2014 - BRDC Formula 4 Championship - 1st
2016 - FIA Formula 3 European Championship - 3rd
2017 - GP3 Series - 1st
2018 - FIA Formula 2 Championship - 1st

I see no worry for a driver Russell's pedigree to be ahead of someone who is still adapting to driving single-seaters following a life-changing injury in his first race back.

Essentially they are both rookies, compared to when Kubica last raced an F1 car. And Russell has more recent experience of racing.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Graz

He's not recovering, he has as much from the arm as he'll ever have. I guess he could still be adapting but that's a different thing.

In response to the other threads, I'm not writing Kubica off yet but he will never be anything like he was, or even close which might be clouding people's thoughts. Think of him as an Ericsson in a Kubica body in terms of performance - the odd decent drive here and there but just not quite there - which is pretty bloody impressive given what he's been through. He's a superhero in my eyes.

Bear in mind Russell has a lot of recent racing miles under his belt with the pretty spicy F2 cars. Kubica has more scope to find a little more than Russell, which isn't easy in a really poor car that missed the first week of testing and is useless too. It wouldn't be a surprise if Russell is quicker because he should be for various reasons, one of which is he has 2 arms, another being he is clearly very good and would ask questions of Kubica Mk 1.

I agree very much with this post. It seems that many attribute Kubica's lack of pace down to his injury. I would suggest that rally racing (which he has done quite a bit since his injury) is more likely to expose issues than F1. Not that I am saying F1 is not physically demanding. I am just saying any performance issues he has is unlikely to be tied to the injury. So I am pretty much discounting the attributed "magnitude" of his physical situation on his pace.

It's more likely that he has been away from F1 as a competitor for nearly a decade and (according to wikipedia) hasn't really run a sustained race schedule in about four years. Let that sink in. He is probably as rusty as can be. Especially in a single seat car. Plus he has made his return in a team that is self destructing.

I think it would be very easy, logical and objectively defensible to be particularly negative about Kubica and his F1 return. But while the ammo exists to be used, I don't personally don't think it should be (or at least I try to not use it). It's a moot point anyhow. He is back. I like a Cinderella story as much as anyone. Everyone could see that amount of unrealized potential before his accident. I hope it works out for him. I hope Williams gives both drivers at least reliable cars with enough spares that they are not afraid to push. And that race weekends are actually "races" not test sessions to figure out why the cars are crap. They may yet trundle around at the rear quite a bit off pace all season. But I hope Kubica has a fair chance to be fairly compared against a teammate who is clearly talented.

Richard

[S griffin]

I think there are good points being made here. Obviously he does not want to go back to rallying. F1 is where he belongs. Rallying was just not him. But the injury is still affecting him, no matter what

Certainly he has been out a while, but he has been testing too. Although no single seater races can’t have helped. He’s in a team that needs someone like him to try and keep him afloat. I like Kubica because he is clearly still talented, that is no doubt, but it remains to be seen if he can still do it. This is not Cinderella, this is F1. But it’s a shame the injuries have ruined his chances. The car ain’t great either, he needs a bit of luck to be running in the points. Wet races are probably the team’s best hope. Against Russell it will be tough, who probably deserves a better seat. But against any talented youngster he would have had a race on.

[pirenzo]

Tend to agree with the assessment that Kubica's pace has more to do with his lack of preparation than his injury. The biggest question mark for me is his mentality. How many times in the past few years has he signed up for some circuit racing (ByKolles in LMP1 and I think a DTM test in there somewhere?) and then backed out of it before even turning a lap in anger?


I'm sure he feels that getting back to F1 is the ultimate mission, but now that's essentially fulfilled, I have my doubts how long he'll enjoy bringing up the rear while getting trounced by his hotshoe teammate.

[pirenzo]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Pirenzo, for me personally, I was always keen on Williams's approach to being a constructor. I quite liked their purist approach that said that all teams should be constructors. I know it hasn't always been that way in Formula 1, but I liked the idea, so in some way it would be nice to see them make the best of that in a situation in which there are 'satellite teams'. Unfortunately, it is now perhaps to the serious detriment of their performance.

I too would like to see them succeed as a "pure" constructor. But it shouldn't be a false yardstick. They aren't so different from Force India or Sauber. It strikes me as a bit silly that Williams are always talking about cost cutting, but insist on spending tons of money building their own gearbox for essentially zero gain?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by pirenzo

I too would like to see them succeed as a "pure" constructor. But it shouldn't be a false yardstick. They aren't so different from Force India or Sauber. It strikes me as a bit silly that Williams are always talking about cost cutting, but insist on spending tons of money building their own gearbox for essentially zero gain?

I don't know what the cost of a gearbox is, but if the cost is spent in house producing a gearbox then the team retains the expertise and maintains the assets necessary to build gearboxes. This expertise may also be useful in constructing other elements of the car. Whilst it may be cheaper and apparently more cost effective and competitive to buy the gearbox in the short term, long term Williams will feel they are losing.

Additionally if the team can find a manufacturer or a sponsor with really deep pockets then they have the expertise to expand into a full manufacturing operation quickly, and this may make the team more valuable in a sale.

I don't know how well this is working out for them though!

Perhaps they see themselves as an engineering company that runs a race team; certainly Ron Dennis' position at McLaren; rather than a pure racing team that needs engineering. This would make their present method of construction understandable.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

I don't know what the cost of a gearbox is, but if the cost is spent in house producing a gearbox then the team retains the expertise and maintains the assets necessary to build gearboxes. This expertise may also be useful in constructing other elements of the car. Whilst it may be cheaper and apparently more cost effective and competitive to buy the gearbox in the short term, long term Williams will feel they are losing.

Additionally if the team can find a manufacturer or a sponsor with really deep pockets then they have the expertise to expand into a full manufacturing operation quickly, and this may make the team more valuable in a sale.

I don't know how well this is working out for them though!

Perhaps they see themselves as an engineering company that runs a race team; certainly Ron Dennis' position at McLaren; rather than a pure racing team that needs engineering. This would make their present method of construction understandable.

It has been suggested on these pages that the FIA is to mandate a standardised gearbox from 2021 onwards. This would seem to make William's decision rather questionable.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It has been suggested on these pages that the FIA is to mandate a standardised gearbox from 2021 onwards. This would seem to make William's decision rather questionable.

Who would manufacture a standardised gearbox?

[peebee2]

It’s out to tender.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

It’s out to tender.

Have any manufacturers come forward?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It has been suggested on these pages that the FIA is to mandate a standardised gearbox from 2021 onwards. This would seem to make William's decision rather questionable.

True, but then Williams have limited clout with the FIA who are only interested in serving the interests of the manufacturers who are the core support for everything other than F1 in the FIA's portfolio of motorsport, and this the FIA are changing for the manufacturers!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

True, but then Williams have limited clout with the FIA who are only interested in serving the interests of the manufacturers who are the core support for everything other than F1 in the FIA's portfolio of motorsport, and this the FIA are changing for the manufacturers!

Sorry, but can you explain what you mean and how what you are saying has any bearing on the gearbox issue.