Verstappen: Combo of Senna and Schumacher?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yet he also has won 5 races. Wait till he gets in a Ferrari or Merc

In your dreams. Had the same discussion about Maldonado and Montoya. All failed due in most part to attitude. That said he's demonstrating that these cars are ultra safe thus easy to drive dangerously.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Throw in some sort of remark about youth and experience and we've almost got the bingo card full already!

[Peter Mallett]

Why? Got nothing to do with age. Senna was pretty young, so was Schmacher. But they were both savvy.

[S griffin]

Both Hamilton and Vettel are saying Max is going to be a big threat for the title in the future. So those that say he isn't good enough to win the title will probably have to eat their words in time

[Peter Mallett]

Possibly but they would say that wouldn't they? There's no reason for them to downplay his obvious talent. My point is, he doesn't use his head enough. Senna made mistakes no doubt, so did Schumacher but I don't recall them allowing themselves to be taken out by other cars, they would bide their time and place their cars in the right position to take advantage of any situation. Max doesn't he has crashed too much and allowed his heart to rule his head, much like Brambilla. He has, like Maldonado, used his car to push other drivers off the track.

In the case of Shumacher his 1994 collision with Hill was a classic move. He had already got a damaged car so he made the best of his own mistake and took out the opposition. Can't see Max thinking like that.

[S griffin]

Max is only 21, he has plenty of time to get rid of those rough edges. Anyway most of the mistakes happened at the beginning of the season. The only one he made recently was at Brazil, although that was 50/50. He has really come on strong in the second half of the season

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Max is only 21, he has plenty of time to get rid of those rough edges. Anyway most of the mistakes happened at the beginning of the season. The only one he made recently was at Brazil, although that was 50/50. He has really come on strong in the second half of the season

Max had contacts with both Ocon and Bottas in Abu Dahbi.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by wnut

Max had contacts with both Ocon and Bottas in Abu Dahbi.

Exactly, and (apparently) the contact with Ocon was deliberate!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Max is only 21, he has plenty of time to get rid of those rough edges. Anyway most of the mistakes happened at the beginning of the season. The only one he made recently was at Brazil, although that was 50/50. He has really come on strong in the second half of the season

Like I posted above, age has nothing to do with it, being savvy a la Schumacher in Adelaide, does.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

He has, like Maldonado, used his car to push other drivers off the track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqc2uK0sTQw

[Peter Mallett]

And your point is? All that does is confirm my position.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Except it's not Maldonado doing the pushing!

[Peter Mallett]

Indeed. Its Maldonado bouncing Hamilton off the circuit. You really should explain what you are trying to describe instead of posting video links. I half expected someone to cite Prost v Senna at Suzuka, or Senna v Prost at Suzuka. In both those cases the perpetrator of the accident won the WDC. That is what being savvy is. Whether you agree with the tactic or not.

To get huffy when you ruin your own race due to revenge is just plain daft. Verstappen is just plain daft.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Indeed. Its Maldonado bouncing Hamilton off the circuit.

After being pushed off. Everybody pushes everybody off the track, it's nothing that Verstappen exclusively does. In fact Hamilton is probably the worst offender against Rosberg and Vettel.

There's also plenty of evidence Verstappen 'uses his head' a lot. Using being lapped to his advantage at Monaco to make an overtake, defending against Raikkonen in a faster Ferrari to take the win, taking completely different lines in the wet because he knows where the grip is, knowing when to speed up and slow down to conserve tyres, and of course knowing when to attack and when not. (Singapore 2015, Russia 2018, Baku 2018 etcetera) He's the only driver in the field who seems to know what the rules say about defending. People have been yelling like idiots about it but he searches for the extreme limit of the rulebook and uses that to his advantage. If that's not being savvy then what is? They had to invent an entirely new rule and then drop it again the very next race because it was so moronic to have in the first place.

He was driving like a complete and utter moron in the first few races of the season, nobody can deny that. He threw away certain wins in China and Monaco. But looking at his entire carreer so far those races are very much the exception. But it's of course much easier to cherrypick, isn't it?

[Peter Mallett]

At last a reasoned discussion. Well done. You still fall into the trap that he's right to take revenge but yes. We can all cherry pick and to that extent, had he used his brain in Brazil he would have won, barring mechanical difficulties. But for the reasons I already presented, he didn't and instead got angry.

[jimclark]

How's the weather?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Both Hamilton and Vettel are saying Max is going to be a big threat for the title in the future. So those that say he isn't good enough to win the title will probably have to eat their words in time

He has enough talent to win any number of titles, whether he can utilise those talents to do so and whether circumstances allow him to is another argument altogether and will only be answered in about 10 years time. It is not inconceivable that circumstances prevent his talent coming to the fore in any number of ways. BTW the same argument can be made for quite a few drivers on the grid at the moment and that is the first thing he has to work out but he seems to be a person who demands things rather than managing circumstances to make them happen.

[S griffin]

He certainly hasn't got where he is by being Mr Nice Guy, but there is a limit. We'll see how he copes with Gasly in 2019

[loon]

Originally Posted by S griffin

He certainly hasn't got where he is by being Mr Nice Guy, but there is a limit. We'll see how he copes with Gasly in 2019

What is this limit?

[S griffin]

Not putting another driver on the grass for a start

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Casper

He has enough talent to win any number of titles, whether he can utilise those talents to do so and whether circumstances allow him to is another argument altogether .

Indeed. But Verstappen is very young still, the chances of him ending up in a car that can win the championship are large. He even has time to make an Alonso move and recover from it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

He certainly hasn't got where he is by being Mr Nice Guy, but there is a limit. We'll see how he copes with Gasly in 2019

It is going to be epically funny if Gasly beats Max.

[S griffin]

If Gasly can beat him, then how good is Gasly?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

He has enough talent to win any number of titles, whether he can utilise those talents to do so and whether circumstances allow him to is another argument altogether and will only be answered in about 10 years time. It is not inconceivable that circumstances prevent his talent coming to the fore in any number of ways. BTW the same argument can be made for quite a few drivers on the grid at the moment and that is the first thing he has to work out but he seems to be a person who demands things rather than managing circumstances to make them happen.

This is an interesting perspective backed up by an interview I saw with Christian Horner where he compared Max to Dan, and said that Max had to learn to work with the engineers like Dan did because Dan was very good at getting the best out of everyone. I think this is the reason that RBR were so keen on retaining Ricciardo this year, and probably why Renault wanted him. It will be interesting to see how RBR go without Ricciardo.
Pretty small minded and petulant of RBR not to allow Ricciardo to test as well, somehow I expected better of them.

[S griffin]

Are they expecting Renault to give them a big sack of dosh to get Ricciardo out of his contract?