2012 Road to Indy - Indy Lights, Star Mazda, USF2000

[gomick]

You could try Indy Lights Series or Wikipedia ...
And you are right, the IndyCar website is absolutely poo...

[kobefly]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

Where did you get this info? I can't find anything about Indy Lights on the 'new, improved' (ha ha) IndyCar website except a token Road to Indy news page, and the old Indy Lights website is offline!

I am using the sites listed above plus doing the standings table myself. Info on IndyLights ir awful!

[Morris Dancer]

Awful? Try non-existent. Apart from some news items on the 'Road to Indy' page, there's NOTHING. No schedule, driver/team info or results. Why do the Indy Lights teams tolerate this farcical situation?

[NaBUru38]

Indy Lights - Indianapolis qualifying:

1. Gustavo Yacamán
2. Victor Carbone
3. Carlos Muñoz
4. Jorge Goncalvez
5. David Ostella
6. Brandon Wagner
7. Alon Day
8. Emerson Newton-John
9. Tristan Vautier
10. Sebastián Saavedra
11. Esteban Guerrieri
12. Armaan Ebrahim
13. Peter Dempsey
14. Oliver Webb
15. Anders Krohn
16. Joao Horto
17. Mike Larrison
18. Chase Austin
19. Juan Pablo Garcia

Guerreri had an issue with the engine.

[ptclaus98]

Yacaman needs to get his license pulled. He will kill someone some day driving the way he did today, which is the way he's driven forever.

[gomick]

After Indy rounds...

Indy Lights, Esteban Guerrieri wins - Standings
Star Mazda, Connor de Philippi wins - Standings
USF2000, Spencer Pigot wins - Standings

[kobefly]

IndyLights - Season 2012 - Driver Standings

Pos	Driver	Nat	Team	Points	R01	R02	R03	R04	R05	R06	R07	R08	R09	R10	R11	R12
1	Guerrieri, Esteban		Sam Schmidt Motorsports	177	40	35	52	50
2	Vautier, Tristan		Sam Schmidt Motorsports	163	53	40	35	35
3	Saavedra, Sebastian		AFS Racing /Andretti Autosport	159	35	53	41	30
4	Carbone, Victor		Sam Schmidt Motorsports	122	30	30	32	30
5	Yacaman, Gustavo		Team Moore Racing	113	28	32	20	33
6	Munoz, Carlos		Andretti Autosport	102	16	16	30	40
7	Juan Pablo, Garcia		Jeffrey Mark Motorsports	95	26	24	26	19
8	Webb, Oliver		Sam Schmidt Motorsports	92	32	17	28	15
9	Day, Alon		Belardi Auto Racing	89	18	28	19	24
10	Goncalvez, Jorge		Belardi Auto Racing	79	19	20	22	18
11	Ebrahim, Armaan		Fan Force United	77	24	18	18	17
12	Ostella, David		Team Moore Racing	73	15	22	24	12
13	Horto, J.V.		Juncos Racing	69	17	26		26
14	Wills, Darryl		Hillenburg Motorsports	54	20	19	15
15	Castaneda, Troy		Bryan Herta Autosport	37	22	15
16	Larrison, Mike		Belardi Auto Racing	22				22
17	Austin, Chase		Juncos Racing	20				20
18	Andries, Nick		Tbolt BHA	17			17
19	Jones, Alex		Brooks Associates Racing	16	0		16
20	Dempsey, Peter		Younessi Racing	16				16
21	Younessi, Rodin		Younessi Racing	14	14
22	Wagner, Brandon		Team E	14				14
23	Newton-John, Emerson		Fan Force United	13				13
24	Krohn, Anders		Bryan Herta Autosport	11				11

[mountainstar]

So there is not one full time American driver in indy lights this year?

[NaBUru38]

Hildebrand, Kimball and Newgarden graduated from Indy Lights in the last three years.

Nick Andries (3rd in 2011 Star Mazda) debuted in the Indy Lights race at Long Beach, but I haven't found why he isn't racing now. Connor de Philippi (3rd and 2nd in 2010 and 2011 Star Mazda) is fighting for the Star Mazda title and will surely step up to Indy Lights for 2013. I guess that Sage Karam (5th in 2011 Star Mazda) will do the same in 2013 or 2014.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Hildebrand, Kimball and Newgarden graduated from Indy Lights in the last three years.

Nick Andries (3rd in 2011 Star Mazda) debuted in the Indy Lights race at Long Beach, but I haven't found why he isn't racing now. Connor de Philippi (3rd and 2nd in 2010 and 2011 Star Mazda) is fighting for the Star Mazda title and will surely step up to Indy Lights for 2013. I guess that Sage Karam (5th in 2011 Star Mazda) will do the same in 2013 or 2014.

Andries can't find money. He got the money to drive the rental for Bryan Herta Autosport at Long Beach, but the money for Indy at BHA came from another driver.

de Phillippi should dominate the title in my opinion. Most who run Star Mazda and look like they have anythings close to talent will win a title in their first year or two. Connor is in year 3 and should take it with a few races to go if he wants to be taken serious in motorsport.

While I think Karam will move up (even next season), I don't see much from him. He races for the best funded team in Star Mazda, and while he's only like 17-18, he hasn't gotten the results in Star Mazda (in what has been a fairly weak grid the last couple of years) to show at least to those on the outside he is that great.

I'm most impressed in Star Mazda with Hawksworth. He came to the US relatively unknown (even in him home country) and has done great. Couple of wins and a title contender. Hope he doesn't disappear like Christodoulou did a few years back.

A bit disappointed by Chavez though. Former FBMW Americas title winner, and has experience in F3 and GP3 (with some success), but hasn't stepped out as someone to watch in the years to come with his so-so performances to start the season. He is the lead driver with the defending championship team and should be a top 3 driver.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by HaydenFan

Andries can't find money. He got the money to drive the rental for Bryan Herta Autosport at Long Beach, but the money for Indy at BHA came from another driver.

what level of money are we talking about to run a decent but not flashy car for a year in these series?

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

what level of money are we talking about to run a decent but not flashy car for a year in these series?

I've heard Indy Lights budgets are similar to top flight F3 budget. Can run a driver upwards of $800K USD to a million dollars.

I know from a friend who ran Star Mazda a few years back that the budgets there are upwards of $300K USD for an entire season. But he even said that number is closer to a half of a million dollars if you want to have a serious shot at the title. Not sure how the budget is this season as they are running many more events as double headers. They went from 11 races in 10 rounds last season to 18 races in 11 rounds this season. Not sure how much a budget jump that is.

Much less than what it costs to run similar series in Europe, but still a big jump from karting and Skip Barber or the other bottom end series than only run a driver less than $100K or $150K.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by HaydenFan

I've heard Indy Lights budgets are similar to top flight F3 budget. Can run a driver upwards of $800K USD to a million dollars.

I know from a friend who ran Star Mazda a few years back that the budgets there are upwards of $300K USD for an entire season. But he even said that number is closer to a half of a million dollars if you want to have a serious shot at the title. Not sure how the budget is this season as they are running many more events as double headers. They went from 11 races in 10 rounds last season to 18 races in 11 rounds this season. Not sure how much a budget jump that is.

Much less than what it costs to run similar series in Europe, but still a big jump from karting and Skip Barber or the other bottom end series than only run a driver less than $100K or $150K.

I have a nice job and that's still more than I make in a year.

If I do get in I think I'll just stick to midgets and/or sprint cars, where I can get everything secondhand for $10-15k.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

I have a nice job and that's still more than I make in a year.

If I do get in I think I'll just stick to midgets and/or sprint cars, where I can get everything secondhand for $10-15k.

I know what you mean. I did a few Skippy races a few years back and for the 10 thousand (5K per race) a weekend it killed me. My parents paid for them, but I had the choice of those or a they helped pay for college. I chose the races (in hindsight not the best idea), and had to take the extra loans for school.

But those figures are based on your paying a team. Covering the salaries of a couple of mechanics and an engineer. Potential damage you'll get (and trust me, you'll get it. Whether you hit anything or not.). And you also are paying the team owner. IMO, that is where the biggest chunk of money goes to. Even a new Formula Ford 2000 car is only a bit over $100K with an engine. And in America, you're not getting a new chassis every year. Odds are in F2000 or USF2000, you're going to be using a car that is 2-3 years old. Star Mazda and Indy Lights are using a car over a decade old now.

If you run things on your own, costs are much less in year 2 on (as start up costs are what keep most new racers away) as you are more likely to do much of the work yourself.

I'd agree, stick with what you can afford and be competitive and still have fun.

BTW, where can you pick up a sprint car for 15K? In Michigan, a secondhand car is still 25-30K for a car. But then again most of my info there comes from a family member who races in the American Sprint Car Series.

But Midgets, in the midwest, those cars are everywhere. Traveling around the Great Lakes could easily get give you 30-40 races and 2-3 championships without driving more than 1000 miles round trip to a race on a given weekend. And in some cases, you could get 2 or even 3 races in a single weekend that you could make. And in most cases, especially on dirt, you don't need to change tires.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by HaydenFan

BTW, where can you pick up a sprint car for 15K? In Michigan, a secondhand car is still 25-30K for a car. But then again most of my info there comes from a family member who races in the American Sprint Car Series.

Classifieds on multiple sites.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by HaydenFan

I know what you mean. I did a few Skippy races a few years back and for the 10 thousand (5K per race) a weekend it killed me. My parents paid for them, but I had the choice of those or a they helped pay for college. I chose the races (in hindsight not the best idea), and had to take the extra loans for school.

But those figures are based on your paying a team. Covering the salaries of a couple of mechanics and an engineer. Potential damage you'll get (and trust me, you'll get it. Whether you hit anything or not.). And you also are paying the team owner. IMO, that is where the biggest chunk of money goes to. Even a new Formula Ford 2000 car is only a bit over $100K with an engine. And in America, you're not getting a new chassis every year. Odds are in F2000 or USF2000, you're going to be using a car that is 2-3 years old. Star Mazda and Indy Lights are using a car over a decade old now.

If you run things on your own, costs are much less in year 2 on (as start up costs are what keep most new racers away) as you are more likely to do much of the work yourself.

I'd agree, stick with what you can afford and be competitive and still have fun.

BTW, where can you pick up a sprint car for 15K? In Michigan, a secondhand car is still 25-30K for a car. But then again most of my info there comes from a family member who races in the American Sprint Car Series.

But Midgets, in the midwest, those cars are everywhere. Traveling around the Great Lakes could easily get give you 30-40 races and 2-3 championships without driving more than 1000 miles round trip to a race on a given weekend. And in some cases, you could get 2 or even 3 races in a single weekend that you could make. And in most cases, especially on dirt, you don't need to change tires.

Which F2000 car costs 100K with engine?

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Which F2000 car costs 100K with engine?

You're right. Can't think of, nor find one. Even the new Van Diemen chassis is only like 45 thousand. Never really looked, and seeing that cars going for nearly a decade old great condition selling for 25-30 thousand, I was assuming.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by HaydenFan

You're right. Can't think of, nor find one. Even the new Van Diemen chassis is only like 45 thousand. Never really looked, and seeing that cars going for nearly a decade old great condition selling for 25-30 thousand, I was assuming.

There is no new Van Diemen, they're out of business.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

There is no new Van Diemen, they're out of business.

Elan, Van Diemen, same company now. I don't pay attention much to the club racing or F2000 scene, so I don't know much about the cars. But it's semantics.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

I have a nice job and that's still more than I make in a year.

If I do get in I think I'll just stick to midgets and/or sprint cars, where I can get everything secondhand for $10-15k.

I saw a friend recently who sold his sprint car for $10k. Looked pretty nice.

To me it's pointless to blow money on these junior formulas anymore. With the exception of a few paid rides from penske and ganassi, everyone else works for peanuts or brings money in the irl. You look at people like Conor Daly or John Edwards and realistically you either make your big shot at F1 or go Nascar. There is also a growing segment out there for paid pros in sportscar racing.

From my own experience, my advice to youngsters, especially those who don't have dads willing to write millions of dollars in checks, is to go the Nascar route. If I had to do it all over again, I would have started racing at my local short track oval and would have been racing every saturday night at a minimum than faffing around trying to raise huge sums of money to race formula cars in front of nobody.

The other thing I would say is that if you are not independently wealthy or have access to great connections, you are better off investing any money you have in education and either growing your career or business. Then when you are 40, like Ken Block, you can afford to do whatever the hell you want to and have the connections to raise money to pay for it as well.

Other than that, if one wants to race open wheel formula cars, FF2000, I believe is reasonable once you make the initial investment in equipment. The cars hold their value well and don't go out of date in one year.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I saw a friend recently who sold his sprint car for $10k. Looked pretty nice.

To me it's pointless to blow money on these junior formulas anymore. With the exception of a few paid rides from penske and ganassi, everyone else works for peanuts or brings money in the irl. You look at people like Conor Daly or John Edwards and realistically you either make your big shot at F1 or go Nascar. There is also a growing segment out there for paid pros in sportscar racing.

From my own experience, my advice to youngsters, especially those who don't have dads willing to write millions of dollars in checks, is to go the Nascar route. If I had to do it all over again, I would have started racing at my local short track oval and would have been racing every saturday night at a minimum than faffing around trying to raise huge sums of money to race formula cars in front of nobody.

The other thing I would say is that if you are not independently wealthy or have access to great connections, you are better off investing any money you have in education and either growing your career or business. Then when you are 40, like Ken Block, you can afford to do whatever the hell you want to and have the connections to raise money to pay for it as well.

Other than that, if one wants to race open wheel formula cars, FF2000, I believe is reasonable once you make the initial investment in equipment. The cars hold their value well and don't go out of date in one year.

John Eddy benefited from the Red Bull program. Yes, I think he did come from a family willing to fund a racing career, but his trip to Europe and quick return to America was directed by that energy drink company. I wish they'd have kept him abroad. His results in Atlantics and Star Mazda proved that.

Single seater people have a much bigger passion about the sport IMO though. Yes, the costs are higher, but the people involved seemed to be much more invested in the series beyond the investment.

Well, I take that back. Rally guys have the biggest passion for the sport. Haven't met a rally driver who isn't crazy. Who only think about rally cars and rally racing. Most of their thoughts go back to the idea of how to fix some piece of the car without spending anymore money, but that is passion in my books.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by HaydenFan

Single seater people have a much bigger passion about the sport IMO though. Yes, the costs are higher, but the people involved seemed to be much more invested in the series beyond the investment.

Well, I take that back. Rally guys have the biggest passion for the sport. Haven't met a rally driver who isn't crazy. Who only think about rally cars and rally racing. Most of their thoughts go back to the idea of how to fix some piece of the car without spending anymore money, but that is passion in my books.

Everyone has their own reasons and levels of passion and it doesn't matter which segment of motorsport it is.

When it comes to these junior formula series and they want $350K or $800K just for one season, you have to ask whether this is a good investment for that money or whether that can go to something else more worthwhile. Too many of these kids are not looking at it as a business and as a result they and their parent wash bazillions down the drain and they get creamed financially.

To me as a driver, any money I do spend on motorsport, there has to be a return of some sort or experience worth having to further my career.

Passion is one thing but when then the sums of money are big enough that could be invested in things like a house or a business that would generate more income, you have to question the return on investment racing in something like star mazda. If you are going to spend a couple of million to get to the indy racin league, you may as well spend it on stock car racing and have a shot at a real career.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I saw a friend recently who sold his sprint car for $10k. Looked pretty nice.

To me it's pointless to blow money on these junior formulas anymore. With the exception of a few paid rides from penske and ganassi, everyone else works for peanuts or brings money in the irl. You look at people like Conor Daly or John Edwards and realistically you either make your big shot at F1 or go Nascar. There is also a growing segment out there for paid pros in sportscar racing.

This is where the lack of open information on this kind of stuff is a hindrance to the sport. Everyone else works for peanuts? We don't know what the 15th-best driver in Indycar now makes in comparison to his comparative number in 2002, 1992, 1982, 1972, etc. We don't know gate money is received like in boxing or MMA for example because promoters would never release them. We don't know what rent for a track is. In modern athlete terms it's probably peanuts but if you find who that driver was 30 years ago, I doubt that man was rich he probably had a working-class to middle-class living as a racecar driver, so that'd be something that's not changed.

To provide a comparison to another series, your top guys in Supercross (which I consider very well run for the product they produce) are millionaires. I think Ryan Villopoto gets something like $5 million. Ryan Dungey got paid a fortune to drive for KTM, and James Stewart and Chad Reed are likewise doing very well. The guys there that get 12th every week are on something like $50000. Which, you know, compared to society, that's a good middle-class living for maybe 8 months' work, but it's a huge difference from the guys in front of them.

From my own experience, my advice to youngsters, especially those who don't have dads willing to write millions of dollars in checks, is to go the Nascar route. If I had to do it all over again, I would have started racing at my local short track oval and would have been racing every saturday night at a minimum than faffing around trying to raise huge sums of money to race formula cars in front of nobody.

NASCAR's having its struggles too at the moment. And I would never tell even a talented driver in the U.S. to move over and try F1. It's not worth it and a lot of people over there would be wanting you to fail.

Look if I get into racing, I'm just doing it for fun. I'm 29 years old, I'm too old to seriously consider any kind of career but I now have financial stability from work that I myself did. Maybe when I was younger, but there's not much in the way of racing where I grew up and now that I'm older and see what parents do for their kids to give them a chance at this stuff, I'm glad my parents didn't do that although I don't think it was ever seriously under consideration anyway. My only way to get into big-time racing is on the technical side where I'd be likely volunteering. Which that's fine, I may move to Indiana for my real job in the coming future, but again, I'm green, so there's no reason for anyone to pay me, and they wouldn't. You mention Conor Daly, I've talked to guys that raced against Daly, and they don't respect him because they knew they were better than him racing against him at lower levels. And this guy won a Star Mazda title, an Indy Lights race, and is now following around the F1 circuit in GP3.

The other thing I would say is that if you are not independently wealthy or have access to great connections, you are better off investing any money you have in education and either growing your career or business. Then when you are 40, like Ken Block, you can afford to do whatever the hell you want to and have the connections to raise money to pay for it as well.

The issue with that though is you're effectively Marty Roth then. That's part of what detracts from sportscars for me is versions of Marty Roth are half the fields it has sometimes seemed, Marty Roth in Indycar was vilified, Marty Roth in sportscars would be perfectly normal. I'll defend Roth before I defend the Milka Dunos and Hiro Matsushi+as of the world because leaving his talent or lack thereof out of it, he created his own ride, he did not buy anyone else's, but still you're not going to have a series people care about if people like him are a good portion of your grid.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

You mention Conor Daly, I've talked to guys that raced against Daly, and they don't respect him because they knew they were better than him racing against him at lower levels. And this guy won a Star Mazda title, an Indy Lights race, and is now following around the F1 circuit in GP3.

People didn't respect Daly? Huh.... I did when I ran a Skippy race against him (as well as Eric Bachelart's kid) in Cleveland. He was better than most of us. Maybe the likes of Joel Miller (only using his name as an example. Good guy.) or Peter Dempsey who didn't have the money to move to truly competitive rides outside Star Mazda might be upset. But Conor wasn't coming from a family with a big check book. He had the advantage of his father and the connections that brought, but why disrespect him? He has the speed, yes others did too in the US junior formula, but not the money. That is racing sadly.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by HaydenFan

People didn't respect Daly? Huh.... I did when I ran a Skippy race against him (as well as Eric Bachelart's kid) in Cleveland. He was better than most of us. Maybe the likes of Joel Miller (only using his name as an example. Good guy.) or Peter Dempsey who didn't have the money to move to truly competitive rides outside Star Mazda might be upset. But Conor wasn't coming from a family with a big check book. He had the advantage of his father and the connections that brought, but why disrespect him? He has the speed, yes others did too in the US junior formula, but not the money. That is racing sadly.

The people that told me never did Skip Barber, it was shifter karts when Derek would buy his son the latest and greatest and then per my friend would go around to every other pitbox to talk to all the other drivers to see what they were running. "You know what we're running, we're running the same thing you are." (direct quote) .

It's about the same criticisms I heard about Danica and Marco some years ago from the same guy, and it's the same criticism I personally have of Dale Earnhardt Jr. who I believe won something like 3 times in 80 career starts at Myrtle Beach. Yeah, they're good solid racecar drivers, but it's not like they were going out there and taking first every race in the minor leagues, when you know they were better off than the people surrounding them. There's a lot of drivers over the years that did better than 3 wins in 80 starts at Myrtle Beach that never got a sniff of ARCA, let alone NASCAR Cup. (to partly defend Dale Jr., I don't think Dale Sr. gifted him a silver spoon at least on the local racing circuits like most fathers do.)

To go off on a tangent, my friend was particularly brutal about Marco at the time because when we were discussing him it was a couple days after the Indy 500 the one year when Marco and Mario Moraes had an accident in the first turn of the first lap, and upon hearing Marco's explanation of the crash and what Marco said he was doing my friend told me in more colorful words "he can drive fast, but from that explanation I can tell he never f-ing learned how to race".

And here we are, look at this past weekend's Indy 500, I was at the race, at midway there were 3 cars that were far and away the class of the field: Marco and the 2 Target cars. And then he disappeared mid-race like he has so many times before where he wasn't mature enough to settle down and handle his racecar when it went away from him. He's been doing Indycar for six years. I feel sorry for him somewhat (ditto Danica truthfully) because they along with Dale Jr. have pressures placed on them they can't help which detracts from their driving, but this script has played out so many times of him being up front early and then nowhere to be found at the end for it to just be a coincidence.