Rover 3500S Sedan Racer

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

well . . .is there room or is it time for a recognised historic modded series ? I'm thinking one that would attract the cars in the period prep, not rebuild with modern guts and an old blob on top like most of the cars are now.

I think its a nice idea but it'lll never happen

Oh, yes please, that would be great. I wonder if there are enough lying around though?

I'd also love to see a historic series for all the old modsports E-types, Elans, TVRS, XKs etc. Trouble is, most have been restored back to original state now, because of their value. Might not be so true of the saloons, however. But as you say, Zef, a nice idea but sadly unlikely to happen.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Oh well it will be interesting when these guys enter it won't it, maybe we will see them out with us in Pre-74 Post Historics which will be nice.

Either I've missed something or you have Al.

They cannot change to a Traco, Repco or other engine. It has to be an original Rover V8 with its original manifolding. I know it was something else before Rover got it.

They cannot lighten or widen the bodywork.

They can improve the brakes and suspension but they can't modify its location etc.

Therefore if your friends are building a replica of the car that started this thread, they'll be unlikely to have anywhere to race it. Sad but true.

[Ian Sowman]

Slightly ironic that there are so (too?) many historic series and yet a particular car can't comply with any of them...

[Peter Mallett]

A Rover P6 3.5 can and does race in Post Historics.

However the one which prompted this thread was never built to any FIA regs (Unless Group 5 ran beyond 1967). I believe it was a supersaloon that ran in the same events as Gerry Marshall's Big and Baby Bertha machines. There's a whole thread about those cars already and if this car was bought it could possibly run in the race that Racing 59 is trying to get started.

But you have prompted a bit of research.

[Peter Mallett]

Frank de Jong is usually a good source for info and the link below seems to show that no Rover entered the 1969 Marathon De La Route.

http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...g%2084hrs.html

[Al Weyman]

The Traco and Repco were just modified Buick engines Peter which were based on the stock unit as I understand, no special head configuration or anything, it is the same as my Penske IROC that was originally fitted with a Traco engine but it would be dead easy to replicate as it is only a Chevy small block as they are merely the tuning company like HT Racing for example. In fact I believe Brian Rice in the UK did the head work for Traco (not 100% sure on that but I know he supplied something or other). These guys preparing this car are old hands so I can guarantee it will be period correct for what ever championship they car to race it in, and Zef for goodness sake don't propose chucking out later model cars from Classic Thinder as I have just let the moths out the wallet to prepare my 87 to be a little more competitive in it.:-(

[Peter Mallett]

The Repco F1 engine was 3 litres and (IIRC) twin cam.

Might have trouble if the 3.5 is single cam.

Back to the original car though. I'm not certain it should be advertised as a works car. I'm really unsure that BL even thought about this project, I'm more certain that somebody else built it up for Roy P to drive.

[Al Weyman]

I certainly would not give 40k for it, I thought it did say it had a Traco engine when raced but a Repco was also concidered.

[John Turner]

I'll need to check but I'm pretty certain that this car raced with a Traco 4.3 (development of the Buick/Rover 3.5) in period. It was certainly a Traco built engine anyway.

[Peter Mallett]

Which in itself would rule it out of the Marathon De La Route.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by d-b

.... don't know if your interested but i have found some information on the v8 p6 racers.

it's in a copy of the book=
THE ROVER V8 ENGINE (2ND EDITION) by DAVID HARDCASTLE
published by HAYNES PUBLISHING
ISBN 0 85429 961 0
(pages 81-84)
there are also 5 pictures of the shaw/pierpoint car

it says 2 were built (JXC806/808D) in 1970

JXC808D was run by BILL SHAW & ROY PIERPOINT & developed by JOMOCO RACING,BROOKWOOD,SURREY
the engine was called a TRACO-ROVER but was a TRACO-OLDSMOBILE prepared by MATHWALL ENGINEERING,COBHAM,SURREY
engine was 4.3litres/360hp
body was mostly aluminium with fibreglass wheel arches

JXC806D basically the same but it competed in the 1971 NURBURGRING 86 HOUR MARATHON DE LA ROUTE,leading for 16 hrs before retiring
this car afterwards went to AUSTRALIA (1971?)where it raced before being restored

hope this might be of some interest

d-b

I found this post in an old thread which I think should help. I have Hardcastle's book; according to him, the preparation of this car was 'contracted out by BL's Competitions Department at Abingdon', which makes it at least a quasi works car, and that 'it was the responsibility of Bill Shaw and Roy Pierpoint ....... to campaign the car' This was JXC 808D and was used in 'one-off' national saloon car races since nothing like enough could be built to enable it to be homologated for Group 2. In fact only one more was built and that was JXC806D. It was 'essentially the same but built to Group 6 prototype regulations'. As Ian says, it would be an irony if neither of these cars could be raced in any of the current historic classes.

These really are two most spectacular special saloons, pushing out about 360bhp at the time and it would be superb to see either or both in action again.

[Peter Mallett]

Ah,

So the reference to 1969 MdlR is incorrect.

Fair enogh. But sadly I still can't see anywhere it could run except perhaps the Deutche Historic Championship which includes some interesting cars.

[John Turner]

Peter, I have two separate sources that say it did run in the Marathon de la Route (which in fact, according to Hardcastle, was what it was built for!). The sources however do differ on the year; one says 1970, the other 1971.

[Peter Mallett]

Here it is.

http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...g%2084hrs.html

BTW. I meant the 1969 MdlR. All the cars in that were homolgated to FIA regs peobably to App J Group 5 although the Mini's were apparently Group 1.

[John Turner]

Yes, I'm not that fast a typist; I was responding to your #26, not #28!

Interesting that for that event, the engine size is quoted as 3532cc. I wonder if that is correct?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Back to the original car though. I'm not certain it should be advertised as a works car. I'm really unsure that BL even thought about this project, I'm more certain that somebody else built it up for Roy P to drive.

Sorry Peter, but I'm sure that these two cars were originally buily by Rover at Solihull, with assistance from BL Competitions in Abingdon. I seem to recall that the job was then farmed out to Bill Shaw Racing afterwards for political reasons. (Internal politics in BL, whatever next?).
I did have an article about these in an old Sporting Cars Magazine, but am sure that I've sold that on Ebay now (along with many old magazines from my youth!).

I'm also sure that Mike Parkes & Roy Pierpoint were mentioned in this article as drivers (if this helps), but then, the article may not have been totally accurate.

I've always had a fascination about these Rovers since seeing a picture of one when they were just built. Thinking what a staid image Rover had at that time, these machines looked awesome to an 11 year old!

[Peter Mallett]

Yes it does seem to be "quasi" works. And actually if we look a bit later on at the (I think) Group 6 MGB GT V8, perhaps the first in a line of thought that took the works beyond GT and Group 1.

For my part it still doesn't rank as a "works" effort in the truest sense but hey ho. But awesome, yes.

[John Turner]

Viva GT, I have the relevant Sporting Cars issue (Vol 2, No.4 - Feb 1984) in front of me. The article is about 'Wild Rare Rovers' and doesn't devote much (and certainly not enough!) to these cars. It says one of them (but doesn't tell us which one) was indeed built at Solihull, although that could have been simply a standard car that was sent out to Shaw and Pierpoint to develop. Hardcastle is not clear on that (see my earlier post). Pierpoint was indeed the driver but there is no mention of Parkes, who, if memory serves, had left Rootes (and therefore no BL connection) for Ferrari some years before.

[johnh875]

It is a shame it is so difficult to find somewhere for the car to race. The local historic touring car series is an amalgamation of the rules of the 2 period classes, however any original, logbooked cars that raced in the period are allowed to race in the spec of the day which for some is significantly more modified than a new car would be allowed, similar to this car. So far there hasn't been a problem with someone taking one of these original cars and winning (let alone winning everything) as they don't tend to be pushed as hard as the replaceable cars they compete against.

[R59]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

it was run with a GM Muncie 4 speed as I use in my cars and they are bomb proof.

Except when the 2nd gear hub wears and it jumps out (grump!)

[rbs]

I do not remember Mike Parkes being involved with this car. Roy Pierpoint, Roger Enever and Clive Baker were the drivers in the Marathon de la Route but Alec Poole was the most regular driver of it.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Viva GT, I have the relevant Sporting Cars issue (Vol 2, No.4 - Feb 1984) in front of me. The article is about 'Wild Rare Rovers' and doesn't devote much (and certainly not enough!) to these cars. It says one of them (but doesn't tell us which one) was indeed built at Solihull, although that could have been simply a standard car that was sent out to Shaw and Pierpoint to develop. Hardcastle is not clear on that (see my earlier post). Pierpoint was indeed the driver but there is no mention of Parkes, who, if memory serves, had left Rootes (and therefore no BL connection) for Ferrari some years before.

Hi John, thanks for clarifying things for me, looks like I must have been wearing my rose tinted spectacles when I read the magazine all those years ago, and remembering what I thought I'd read!
I still retain my fascination for these cars though, remembering what a shock it was to discover that 'Auntie Rover' had been involved with such a project. (Let's face it, despite the rally project with Roger Clark in practically standard 2000's, they hadn't been properly involved in motorsport for years).
Keep up the good work...

[Al Weyman]

Viva did you ever see John Hills beautiful Viva GT he raced with us in the ModProds? Don't know what happened to it but it was a proper car, red with a matt black bonnet. He raced a Manta after that and let me take it around Goodwood, I was very impressed with the stability and handling of the car.

[KA]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Viva GT, I have the relevant Sporting Cars issue (Vol 2, No.4 - Feb 1984) in front of me. The article is about 'Wild Rare Rovers' and doesn't devote much (and certainly not enough!) to these cars. It says one of them (but doesn't tell us which one) was indeed built at Solihull, although that could have been simply a standard car that was sent out to Shaw and Pierpoint to develop. Hardcastle is not clear on that (see my earlier post)

According to the Bill Price 'BMC/BL Competitions Department' book, the car was built by Bill Shaw (although he contracted much of the work out as he was in the process of moving his workshop) at the request of Peter Browning of the BL Competitions Department- the base car was supplied by Abingdon and had been previously used in a number of rallycross events, driven by Geoff Mabbs. The book earlier mentions these rallycross outings, and refers to the car as having been 'borrowed from Solihull'- that could explain the Solihull reference in the Sporting Cars article.
The Price book suggests that Peter Browning had the Rover P6 in mind as the successor to the Mini- it's interesting to wonder what might have resulted had BL not pulled the plug on the Competitions Department- the closure decision was made only days before the team competed in the Marathon de la Route with the car...
The engine is described in the book as a 4.3 built by Mathwall Engineering using some Traco parts- 365bhp. Traco wwre asked to supply a pair of engines for the project, but these were less powerful- Price quotes 295bhp. The book implies these were built to a lower spec, as it says Traco were asked to tune them 'to give the best power output available with off-the-shelf parts'

[John Turner]

Getting either of these cars onto the track racing today, seems (sadly) unlikely, in the light of the comments here. Most of the recent discussion, quite understandably, has been about their history, so I'm now putting this over to the history forum. I will leave the link in, however.