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Old 25 Jan 2020, 21:27 (Ref:3953487)   #16
bella
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my bad, they must do a buy 5 get the 6th free coffee card deal or something
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Old 25 Jan 2020, 23:01 (Ref:3953541)   #17
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There are other series.

The Drexler F3 series visits Italy, Czech repulic, Hungary and Austria and appears to have widened scope to allow Formula Renault and some F4 cars.

There is an Italian series as well, and Ireland has Formula Boss, in which some F3 cars race against F. Renaults, GP2, modified F3s and a couple of closed wheel Radicals.

In my opinion F3 Cup allowed in the F312 chassis a bit too early and it meant that the F305-F307 car was no longer the car to have, and you either needed a F308-11 with Mercedes or VW power or a F312 or newer car. The older car may have had similar power, but didn't generate the same levels of downforce. Cost of entry for a competitive car a couple of seasons ago was probably 40k, now its at least double that, possibly triple.

Maybe letting Formula Renaults in would help?
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 09:58 (Ref:3953658)   #18
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The F3 Cup isn't open to just the last two generations of F3 cars . According to the regulations there are also classes for F3 cars from 1981 to the 2007 , a class for post 1999 cars powered by standard engines and also an invitation class for suitable cars which don't comply with the above . As far as I'm aware no one has competed in any of the classes except the top one recently so allowing in Formula Renaults probably wouldn't increase the grid dramatically either

The real problem is the lack of availability of secondhand F3 cars coming on to the market due to most single seater series becoming one make and retaining their chassis for several seasons rather than selling them at the end of each season .

Unless something is done ( which it won't be ) ' modern ' single seater racing at club level will die out .
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 17:52 (Ref:3953859)   #19
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Correct, its not open just to F308-11 and F312-317 cars, but the F305-7 can't compete and the F302-4, F399-01 and older cars are going to be worse.

Monoposto will take up to F307 cars providing they are raised to 40mm and have appropriate restrictor - 25mm for International or National F3 or 28.5mm for the Piedrafieta engine used in Spanish F3 - both those are slightly smaller than F3 Cup but Monoposto don't want these engines having an advantage.

The Trophy Class for older cars is open if anyone wants to enter a single round and win a championship. The open class doesn't acrue Championship points and is effectively for Monoposto cars who want to race in a more expensive championship. The invitational class was used a couple of time last year for current Euroformula Open cars.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 19:17 (Ref:3953901)   #20
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I guess there are at least two reasons for not running F305-7s in the F3 Cup. Firstly the thoroughbred Formula 3 engines are expensive to run compared to those run in the Monoposto series while why pay more to run at the rear of the F3 Cup when you can buy an F305 and run at the front in Monoposto for much less money . A great shame as Class B cars helped to bulk out National Championship F3 grids for many years .

A bigger problem for the future of both Monoposto and F3 Cup will be that of car supply as national single seater series seem to finish at Formula 4 or the occasional National F3 series such as the BRDC one and as they are used for several seasons won't be entering the club supply chain for a while . Maybe Monoposto competitors will go back to building their own cars again ?
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 23:22 (Ref:3953930)   #21
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Yes, F3 engines are costly to maintain. Some people religiously send their engines off for a € 10,000 rebuild at the prescribed mileage limits. Others extend the mileage and have to accept that a couple of horses will escape - those horses would make the difference in professional level racing, but less important in club racing. That €10k is just for a routine rebuild, if something catastrophic
happens, a new engine is three times that.

Monoposto F3 has two thorns to contend with (they are aware and are thinking ahead) - the supply of chassis and future supply of engines - currently the favoured option on the older F3 cars which have Toyota or Vauxhall / Opel units is to take the high-performance option (3S-GE from the Toyota MR2/Celica or Vauxhall C20XE "Red Top" from fast Cavaliers and Calibras and to use the F3 engines fitting kit. You could get a perfectly serviceable donor engine from the scrap yard for 100- 300, but those engines are not so easy to find now...

VW and Mercedes engines don't have an normally aspirated high performance option - the F3 engines created thanks to the F3 rule book, by boring smaller capacity engines, so there isn't a cheap off the shelf alternative. Those cars have high performance options, but often they're either turbocharged and/or over 2 litre capacity.

The modern chassis are mostly either Mercedes or VW and the fitting kits to add a Vauxhall or Toyota engine don't exist. Of course they could be fabricated but at significant expense.

So maybe the Monoposto cars of the future will not be carbon-tubbed F3 machines, reverting to tubular space frame cars such as US FF2000, unless the 850 Tatuus Formula Renaults that are out there decide to go racing.

For years, club racing has relied on the hand-me-downs from professional level series - F3 cars spent 3-4 years in top level F3, possibly spending a couple of years as a Class B car before dropping out when the next generation cars push them out of favour.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 23:58 (Ref:3953931)   #22
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The Tatuus Formula Renaults have been eligible for Monoposto I believe for a few seasons but only a handful have appeared. It's surprising given as you say the numbers made. Have they been regulated to prevent them dominating the Monoposto series?
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 00:14 (Ref:3953932)   #23
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Just had a quick look on Racecarsdirect and noticed three single seaters which , technically , could be suited to Mono/Club F3. A Hungarian based championship winning Tatuus Formula Renault is on for €23,000 , a Mono spec Dallara F304 , championship winner in 2017 with a massive spares package is 28,000 while a Ralt RT31 TOMS in Holland, complete but requires a full rebuild , is POA . Living in hope or the effect of the new Geoff Lees Trophy series ?
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 21:31 (Ref:3954104)   #24
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There was a separate class for Tatuus Formula Renault 2000's as there are plenty of cars out there and there was support from teams owning these cars. Unfortunately turning those into filled seats was difficult and only a handful of owners joined - I suspect the previously 'pro' FR teams with the cars lying dormant were still charging 'pro' arrive and drive prices for an amateur level championship, so it was amalgamated into Mono F3 after 2 seasons.

They don't want a new car to come in and dominate, upsetting the apple cart, but had hoped the FR could be a popular option for a driver who wanted a strong and reliable carbon tubbed car, that they could engineer and improve. Maybe not the ultimate in performance but a strong mid field option for strong mid-field drivers on a moderate budget - the modern Formula Vauxhall Lotus.

The only mods that were made was that the FR2000 cars had to run the restrictor plate that Protyre Formula Renault BARC cars ran, and had to be run at MSA 40mm ride height too, like all cars in Mono. Otherwise as per published FR BARC regulations although tyre choice was free.

Running the smaller restrictor in its own class was meant that once a bigger sample of lap times had been gleaned and analysed, then maybe the restrictor size could be increased to find the optimal performance level.

Last edited by andrewc; 27 Jan 2020 at 21:38.
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