M-Sport Ford Fiesta rally & rallycross cars

[FIRE]

In which series do they use the S2400 version?

I assume the right car is the Block or at least the rx version.

[NaBUru38]

That S2400 sounds like a European version of the Argentine Maxi Rally cars.

[BudLightJaguar]

So RX version is more expensive than WRC. That's interesting - it wasn't more than ten to fifteen years ago when Super Cars (division 1 cars then) were made in someone's garage with relatively low budget.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by FIRE

In which series do they use the S2400 version?

It was used in the BTRDA Championship in 2013...

http://www.m-sport.co.uk/m-sport-new...son-rally.html

...don't recall seeing any mention of it since. Sure there are a few 2.4L Escorts running in the UK and Ireland, so perhaps the S2400 car was developed more as a platform for demonstrating the engine then a car they intended to sell?

Good picture though: now I know how much I need to win on the lottery to buy myself a M-Sport rallycross Fiesta!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Sure there are a few 2.4L Escorts running in the UK and Ireland, so perhaps the S2400 car was developed more as a platform for demonstrating the engine then a car they intended to sell?

The 2.4 engine commonly used in Escorts isn't one of theirs though - so I don't think they'd be pushing that - unless they have a rival option, but then it'd make more sense to run it in an Escort surely? No idea where the S2400 fits in

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by BudLightJaguar

So RX version is more expensive than WRC. That's interesting - it wasn't more than ten to fifteen years ago when Super Cars (division 1 cars then) were made in someone's garage with relatively low budget.

I thought supercars are around €220k to €260k.
Apparently it's much more expensive.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I thought supercars are around €220k to €260k.
Apparently it's much more expensive.

I thought they cost around this much as well. Still, I guess M-Sport labour rates aren't cheap and I suspect rallycross-spec Pipo engines push the price up as well.

It would be interesting to see how the cost of the M-Sport rallycross Fiesta compares to the OMSE cars.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I thought they cost around this much as well. Still, I guess M-Sport labour rates aren't cheap and I suspect rallycross-spec Pipo engines push the price up as well.

It would be interesting to see how the cost of the M-Sport rallycross Fiesta compares to the OMSE cars.

But €250k or €500k is a big difference.

The Emil Öhman 2013 DS3 (ex Hansen) is for sale:
http://rallycross.com/sales_db/viewo...5524&lang_id=0

€235k for 2013 car.

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by FIRE

€235k for 2013 car.

That would still be competitive in national championships, needs only a good pair of hands. And I'm quite sure it's been built to a chassis with zero road mileage.

Though it's still expensive, if you want to compete only in national championships there are lots of cheaper alternatives.

[FIRE]

I think in the right hands (driver and team) it's still competitive in WRX/ERX.

[FIRE]

What will cost a Pauwels built Focus or VA Engineering/Kuypers built Fiesta? Around €200k to €220k?

[crossfades]

The reason the Fiesta RX car is so expensive is because of it being a manufacture car really. WRC cars are much more developed and there is more spent money on them. Almost all rallycross cars are of "private" build where there aren't so many working on it and not even near the amount of money. The M-Sport Fiesta is according to me the best rallycross car in the world

[chunder]

The best rallycross car is the Polo, I dont care what you say Heikkenen and the like are not the best guys out there, Foust maybe, but put Isachsen, Timur, Jeanny in a Polo and they would win more, that teams drivers are wek in my view.

Actually scraitch that, the Ekky Audi's are probably the best!

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by chunder

The best rallycross car is the Polo, I dont care what you say Heikkenen and the like are not the best guys out there, Foust maybe, but put Isachsen, Timur, Jeanny in a Polo and they would win more, that teams drivers are wek in my view.

Actually scraitch that, the Ekky Audi's are probably the best!

The Polo's are a good shout. I think its notable how much more reliable they have been in 2014 since they got "official" backing. As for the drivers, I'm not convinced by Marklund, but I do think Heikkinen is pretty handy behind the wheel.

I don't know too much about who is behind the EKS Audi's. It's clearly a decent build, as they have been quick and reliable straight out of the box. The A1/S1 seems a great platform as well.

The OMSE Fiesta's also spring to mind. OMSE have produced so many cars (and run them in multiple Championships) that their car must be very well developed at this point.

Despite the above though, if I had to pick one car as the best developed, I'm with crossfades...

Originally Posted by crossfades

The M-Sport Fiesta is according to me the best rallycross car in the world

...although you can argue that a lot of M-Sport's experience isn't entirely relevant to rallycross, they have so much in-house expertise (and so much experience with the Fiesta chassis) I personally see that as the best developed car out there.

As an aside (my apologies to Fire for taking this thread off topic!), but back on the subject of money, is the M-Sport Fiesta the most expensive rallycross car to date? I have heard some big numbers associated with the PSRX cars (I wonder what the price tag is on the 2013 car he is selling?), but I wonder if its as high as the M-Sport price? Has anyone thrown as much cash at cars in the past?

I appreciate this might be a difficult question to answer as inflation makes it tricky to gauge the cost of the current cars against the older cars.

[chunder]

Wilson has to fund his really team somehow!

I think most rallycross cars are insanely overpriced, you only have to look at guys like Watson to see that residual value or money you might ahve spent is not worth anything, once you ahve made the investment you are better off keeping it as you will never get that sort of money for an old car.

OMSE are basically what started WRX and certainly what is keeping GRC alive, if they went the series would bomb. And they are clearly pushing Lites to rpelace everything as a support series.

My only worry is what happens if they lose money

Oh and if anyone calls that cretin commentator the "voice of rallycross" one more time! Never, ever ever will he be that.

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by crossfades

The reason the Fiesta RX car is so expensive is because of it being a manufacture car really. WRC cars are much more developed and there is more spent money on them. Almost all rallycross cars are of "private" build where there aren't so many working on it and not even near the amount of money. The M-Sport Fiesta is according to me the best rallycross car in the world

That's correct. Until now, there hasn't been such a thing as 'works rallycross car' except some semi-works exceptions. But it's not always about the budget or high-end excotic technology. In the early 80's Ford works team failed with their group B Escort 1700T project. And the same time, Martin Schanche built fast 4x4 Escort in his own private workshop with shoestring budget and pure inventiveness.

[crossfades]

I have heard that the EKS Audi's are some kind of manufacture car. The chassis are built in Germany by some associates of Ekström but that is the only thing I know.

Not sure about the Polo really. It is built by Marklund themselves and Ingvar Gunnarsson I belive, and has a engine from Trollspeed. Transmission comes from Mats Carlsson. Although it is a good car, I don't think it is the top car of the WRX. The Polos, the Clio of Walfridson and Linnerud, Robin Larssons Audi, Eklunds Saabs, Holtes Volvo C30 etc, have are more similar cars than one might think. These cars are good cars but not in the same class as the Fiesta I think

[chunder]

Schanche did get financial help from Ford, his cars were always backed by Ford, but i am thinking it was probable help with parts and not invovlement in development, maybe some cash.

Fiesta is nowhere near the best car. They have very good drivers and more money than anyone else, but the 208 was by far the most improved car, the Polo the strongest adn the EKS cars the fastest, to win in Sweden in the heaviest field in a brand new car against that lot shows that

[crossfades]

I am talking of the M-sport Fiesta, not the OMSE. The Fiesta RX43 was only driven by Block last year, and he made two podium with it finishes in Norway and France which are heavy fields. I remember when the cars goes through the last hairpin and the short straight before the finish line. It was quite the vibration in the ground when Block came compared to the other cars ..

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by chunder

Schanche did get financial help from Ford, his cars were always backed by Ford, but i am thinking it was probable help with parts and not invovlement in development, maybe some cash.

So it was a same kind of contract as Per Eklund had with Saab. Saab provided molds for carbon fiber parts and some financial support but basically rallycross Saabs were built in his workshop. As well as the tube-frame Pike's Peak Saab.

[chunder]

And Trollspeed built the engines.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by crossfades

I am talking of the M-sport Fiesta, not the OMSE. The Fiesta RX43 was only driven by Block last year, and he made two podium with it finishes in Norway and France which are heavy fields. I remember when the cars goes through the last hairpin and the short straight before the finish line. It was quite the vibration in the ground when Block came compared to the other cars ..

Blocks car sounded savage in France, way more aggressive on the overrun than anything else out there. Needed more fire though.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by crossfades

Not sure about the Polo really. It is built by Marklund themselves and Ingvar Gunnarsson I belive, and has a engine from Trollspeed. Transmission comes from Mats Carlsson. Although it is a good car, I don't think it is the top car of the WRX. The Polos, the Clio of Walfridson and Linnerud, Robin Larssons Audi, Eklunds Saabs, Holtes Volvo C30 etc, have are more similar cars than one might think. These cars are good cars but not in the same class as the Fiesta I think

Wondering myself. How much differ these Gunnarsson cars besides bodyshell and engine? I assume these all share sort of same suspension setup and other parts.

[crossfades]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Wondering myself. How much differ these Gunnarsson cars besides bodyshell and engine? I assume these all share sort of same suspension setup and other parts.

That is correct, the bodyshells and the setup is similar on the Swedish cars. Though as time goes on, this will differ. Larsson's Skoda, the Walfridson Clios, Eklund Saabs, Jernberg's Skoda, Isachsens Fords, Holtes Volvos and more cars has used Trollspeed engines or been built by Gunnarsson. Many of the cars use standard parts that can be found in regular cars too. The cars was cheaper just a few years ago then now

[USRallycross]

This has turned into an interesting thread.

I believe the M-Sport Fiesta to be better than the OMSE Fiesta's. I think the challenge for Andreas is how much further than he can develop the car and platform. I think most of last years improvements came from Mountune. Be interesting to see how he has developed them over the winter.

Chunder may help here. But I recall reading maybe in an old Castrol Rally magazine from say 1980 that John Welch's Ford Escort Mk2 cost 30,000GBP. That seems like a huge amount of money for 1980 so wondered how that stacked up to today's prices which are incredidbly high and of course have no re-sell value.

Have been at many tests I think Topi is better than many think but I would love to see Foust properly focus on WRX. Without film and TV commitments I think he could be a potential champion but like F1 you can't win WRX if you are based here......


Mark