GP2 and GP3: Pros and Cons etc..

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Jackman

A couple of points:

F Master was not going to turn into GP3: that just wasn't on the cards. The GP3 car is completely bespoke, and designed by Dallara: F Master is designed by Tatuus, and is a very different car.

I do wonder about the 'stability' at WSR: I've noticed a lot of GP2 drivers dropping down to do some races, presumably to learn the tracks ahead of the GP2 race (or in Herck's case, to get some idea about the place before crashing on the front straight...). That doesn't strike me as a strong plan for the future of the series if drivers are dropping in and out at a whim: things happen, but they seem to have a big turnover.


It's clear that GP3 will overlap with a few series, and WSR would be one of them, along with the various F3s: the point is GP3 will be on the F1/GP2 calendar, and competing in front of the guys they want to impress. Obviously GP3 will want to steal talent from the other series, but to be fair there are way too many series out there already, and it wouldn't be a bad thing to clean up the ladder a bit.

As for GP2, I don't think their media profile is that bad: it's on the F1 package and therefore in front of the mainstream journalists, and junior racing is never going to be of that much interest to Joe Public. What it clearly does need is better TV.

Not sure where you're getting that: everything I've heard says that the GP3 is already faster than F3. It's pretty obvious that they are the target.

I thought the FMaster car was designed by N.Technology, and then built by Tatuus. Just like the FR2000 was designed by Renault Sport and then built by Tatuus.

Seems like GP3's main rival will be the F3 Euroseries and WSbR - it strikes me that two career ladders could be national FR -> national F3 -> GP3, or FR2.0 Eurocup -> GP3.

[Spudy]

I don't think WSR and IFM plus others will exisit next year. I also doubt the longevity of F2 as well. I don't think GP3 will add to an already saturated junior formula industry I think it will finish some off so there will be less out there.

I guess we'll be able to tell more when the entry lists go in for GP3. If there are WSR teams on there I think it will be obvious from then that WSR won't exisit next year.

[davyboy]

There are so many different series at that level all serving the same purpose - an intermediate step between F-Renault and GP2. The whole thing is very confusing for everyone and you have to ask yourself what the relative value of doing one series over an other really is. No doubt they've emerged on the scene because F3 has become ludicrously expensive and people want cheaper alternatives. Had the FIA addressed costs and updated F3 some time ago, there would be more national F3 series' in existance and that would still be the logical intermediate step.

[duke_toaster]

I have to agree that F3 needs severe changes - not just to improve the power to grip ratio of the cars (more power, less aero grip) but to cut costs. That's the carrot.

The stick would be changing the way the Superlicence rules work, by reducing the series that award superlicences in order to make F3 the genuine third tier, then a multichassis Formula Two.

[sauber11]

2 series, that "must die" are f-master and f3000.
F3000 now is a completely joke, 7 races calendar ( after donington cancel even 6), less than 10 cars on the grid, most of them black colour without any sponsorship.

As for WSR, i believe this series will stay alive for at least 3-4 years.
In worst case next year they will have not full 26 cars grid, lets say 16-20.

[ivanalesi]

GP3 was born in the wrong moment, when Bernie and Max weren't as great mates as they used to be. GP3 for me should be FIA International F3 Championship, it should have several rounds with F1 and then Zandvoort and Macao as the all important final. This way it shouldn't be more expensive than the normal driver in F3ES is used to spend. Btw, how many continents do you need to have a world championship? Giandomenico de Grigoriachi - F3 World Champion, sounds great to me

[davyboy]

Agreed totally... it should be the most prestigious F3 championship and the same spec. cars etc... [with as duke toaster says, a better power to grip ratio] raced at national championship level too. We should have national F3 championships in Spain, France, Britain, Germany, Italy, Japan, Australia, Brazil, Sweden etc... like we used to.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

GP3 was born in the wrong moment, when Bernie and Max weren't as great mates as they used to be. GP3 for me should be FIA International F3 Championship, it should have several rounds with F1 and then Zandvoort and Macao as the all important final. This way it shouldn't be more expensive than the normal driver in F3ES is used to spend. Btw, how many continents do you need to have a world championship? Giandomenico de Grigoriachi - F3 World Champion, sounds great to me

It's three continents.

The idea of an F3 World Champion is a good idea, I've thought that a Grand Slam of F3 would be a good idea. However, I feel that it should be an additional thing to the national series (and I'm counting ES as a national series, although it ought to be re split up once our little glorious revolution in F3 happens). Pau and Zandvoort are stand-out choices, as are Macau. Maybe have the fourth event in Marrakesh with the WTCC, meaning that it would be three continents (Europe, Asia, Africa) and therefore count as a World Championship. Otherwise the rules could be changed or it could be made a Grand Slam rather than a World Championhip.

Some of those countries that Davyboy has mentioned already have F3 series, but it needs something to bring it to the foreground. Other countries just need an F3 series - ideally all countries with any real motorsport would have either an F3 series or one using an worldwide multichassis Formula Junior or both.

[Mak]

All great ideas but who is going to pay for it. The bubble has burst and all series need to start thinking about how to make it more efficient. F2 is the only series that has full grids with all paying the budget. It is nowhere near the standard of GP2, World Series or F3, but the money is doing the talking and its all heading that way. Red Bull can get as much TV exposure for a fraction of the cost of other series. We all know that it has nothing on all the other series when it comes to drivers but in the current economic climate it seems attractive to sponsors and "Dads" alike. All the other formula need to take note and cut costs and become more efficient so as to get the money back with "real" racing teams. At the moment GP3 does not stand out as a viable alternative, Unless (and very unlikely) F1 subsidises this new series. As it is all about raising more revenue for Bernie I think it will struggle to get budgeted drivers, as has World Series this year.

[topper]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The GP3 organisers have seen what GP2 has done in carving it's own space on the F1 package. They obviously feel that there is room/scope to be exploited for a 'lower' still, serious category which will use the F1 bill and all its exposure potential to compete very strongly with F3 which by comparison has a much more limited lvel of mainstream exposure potential.

The exposure part of this is spot on, but it remains to be seen whether GP3 can actually take on F3 and win....

Are you saying that GP3 is an attempt to kill off F3 in its current guise and take its place on the junior ladder? Looking at testing so far, although early days, the car isnt built to the same standard of F3 and its not as quick. Perhaps the times will improve though. I understand it is considerably cheaper than F3..

I guess it depends on which teams enter GP3, to determine its strength. By which I mean teams such as Hitech, Carlin, Double R and ART.

I just hate the feeling that GP3 is being created to make another quick buck. And yes, that level is already dilluted with too many series.

[chunterer]

Well what I think it is going to try and do is compete at the same level but exploiting a much more marketable platform, I.E, on the F1 support bill which automatically provides decent crowds, and therefore is pretty sponsor friendly?

F3 has always managed to maintain a big enough profile and a de-facto place on the ladder and in people's minds so to speak but apart from national championship level as GP supports in the past has never regularly supported GP's.

The F3ES perhaps should've been pitching strongly to get on it in Europe at least. I suspect they did look and if so were probably told some horendous price for slots at silly times of the day to be a part of it!!

[Mak]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Well what I think it is going to try and do is compete at the same level but exploiting a much more marketable platform, I.E, on the F1 support bill which automatically provides decent crowds, and therefore is pretty sponsor friendly?

F3 has always managed to maintain a big enough profile and a de-facto place on the ladder and in people's minds so to speak but apart from national championship level as GP supports in the past has never regularly supported GP's.

The F3ES perhaps should've been pitching strongly to get on it in Europe at least. I suspect they did look and if so were probably told some horendous price for slots at silly times of the day to be a part of it!!

Not sure how competeing at the crack of dawn or dust, before or after all the spectators have arrived / gone is a marketable platform. With the many disadvantages, pushed out miles from the main paddock, having to arrive early leave late, pay high accomodation costs, treated like rubbish, paying bernie, is an attractive package, I could go on, minimal track time, traffic. F1 crowds attend for F1 and don't care what else is there. Anyway who sponsors at this level other than dad's and their business crownies? F3 has survived for decades with no real spectator apeal.

[bella]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The F3ES perhaps should've been pitching strongly to get on it in Europe at least. I suspect they did look and if so were probably told some horendous price for slots at silly times of the day to be a part of it!!

not much different time-wise than they manage on the dtm package then

but seriously, they did do the french gp support race in 2007 and it wasn't anything glorious.

[strider]

Originally Posted by topper

I guess it depends on which teams enter GP3, to determine its strength. By which I mean teams such as Hitech, Carlin, Double R and ART.

I understand the GP2 teams are being invited to run GP3 cars for starters, which makes sense as they will be there anyway.

After that, we'll see.

One thing the FIA has done to reduces the costs of F3 is decide that the official life of the current cars will be be extended from 3 years to 4, which is very sensible. The need not to renew equipment for another 12 months is a big saving.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by strider

I understand the GP2 teams are being invited to run GP3 cars for starters, which makes sense as they will be there anyway.

After that, we'll see.

One thing the FIA has done to reduces the costs of F3 is decide that the official life of the current cars will be be extended from 3 years to 4, which is very sensible. The need not to renew equipment for another 12 months is a big saving.

On both points, those are good things, if teams are already at a meeting doing something else then it would make sense for them to run other cars.

Extra longevity for F3 chassis would surely help to keep costs down a bit even if F3 is still pretty expensive nowadays, especially the big series! There'll be plentiful supply of spares I guess?

[Go_For_Pole]

The extended life cycle has already been announced in Italy. It's a step in the right direction but then again it's not Italy nor Spain that suffer from unrealistic budgets.

Btw I understand that not all GP2 teams are thrilled by GP3, however the new series does not necerally need them to prosper. Essentially it's up to Red Bull, RDD, TRD, Gravity and all the various driver academies/schemes that will decide the GP3 vs F3ES vs WSR vs BF3 battle.

[ivanalesi]

Mak, it's you who knows all this and it's true. But many of the sponsors think it's just sooo exclusive to be associated with F1 and brushing arms during the races with F1 mechanics and engineers At Hungary, FM had no free practice, went directly into qualifying... it won't be better for the drivers for sure.

[Spudy]

I think everyone is making good points.

GP2 is not being doubted as a good series so I don't understand why GP3 is. They will run in the exact same format apart from there will be no pit stops. So you'll get practice, quali, race1 and race 2 and reverse grid on Sunday.

Being on the support bill of F1 is very advantagous for teams and drivers due to the fact its all about who you know in this industry. GP3 would allow drivers to race at F3 level (if not quicker) in front of the F1 paddock and media for less than a F3 and WSR budget. I would prefer to go out to F1 support for less money, wouldn't you?

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Spudy

I think everyone is making good points.

GP2 is not being doubted as a good series so I don't understand why GP3 is. They will run in the exact same format apart from there will be no pit stops. So you'll get practice, quali, race1 and race 2 and reverse grid on Sunday.

Being on the support bill of F1 is very advantagous for teams and drivers due to the fact its all about who you know in this industry. GP3 would allow drivers to race at F3 level (if not quicker) in front of the F1 paddock and media for less than a F3 and WSR budget. I would prefer to go out to F1 support for less money, wouldn't you?

Less money?????????

Also to be honest GP2 has no competition. All other formula lay below the level of GP2, however GP3 will have to compete with a number of other formula's. WS, FM, F3ES, F3UK, Int F3 and F2, and as said b4 the costs of running at F1 races are highter with less attention and influence.

[davyboy]

GP3 could also be a needle match between Flav/Bernie and the FIA's F2.

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

But many of the sponsors think it's just sooo exclusive to be associated with F1 and brushing arms during the races with F1 mechanics and engineers At Hungary, FM had no free practice, went directly into qualifying... it won't be better for the drivers for sure.

FM is the wrong example. Let's try another one: sponsor of a F.BMW driver and their guests travel to the Hungarian GP, get top BMW hospitality for three days, get a tour in the F1 paddock, get to know what F.BMW is, get to watch their sponsored driver compete, get to see Kubica and Theissen from up close plus they watch the F1 race. I would say they felt exclusive and all that.

[Spudy]

GP3 is going to be cheaper than F3 Euroseries and WSR, they have already said the budgets will be set lower. They have also said they will make the car quicker than F3. So we'll have to see.

I have to agree with the above on hospitality, they will run GP2 and GP3 together with a new better unit and plus the F1 drivers go down to GP2 for dinner so it is pretty good for sponsors etc to see. It 'should' be a success but whther it is is another thing altogether.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by davyboy

GP3 could also be a needle match between Flav/Bernie and the FIA's F2.

Maybe Bernie and Max(F2). And as Bernie seems to have already won that one, maybe the enthusiasm for GP3 will also wain.
Gp3 will not have a maufacturer backing it as F.BMW has as far as I'm aware.
Some top GP2 teams also tried to run in FBMW when it first supported F1 and even after buying cars and setting up could not find suitably Budgeted drivers. Wonder how F. BMW will survive without BMW in F1?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Mak

Wonder how F. BMW will survive without BMW in F1?

The answer is, it probably won't.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by davyboy

GP3 could also be a needle match between Flav/Bernie and the FIA's F2.

Good point. GP3, if it does turn out to be cheaper than F3 will certainly be in F2 territory.

Originally Posted by Spudy

GP3 is going to be cheaper than F3 Euroseries and WSR, they have already said the budgets will be set lower. They have also said they will make the car quicker than F3. So we'll have to see.

I have to agree with the above on hospitality, they will run GP2 and GP3 together with a new better unit and plus the F1 drivers go down to GP2 for dinner so it is pretty good for sponsors etc to see. It 'should' be a success but whther it is is another thing altogether.

Well the way I see it is WSR 3.5 is still higher or 'bigger' than the level GP3 will be aiming at. F2 despite the grand title is lower than F3 to everyone bar an unassuming new sponsor I would imagine?

WSR is bigger than F3, certainly more powerful and faster as we all know, but largely seen as either an alternative to F3, or a holding ground for GP2?

Yes, the the big time hospitality element is a major sponsor/entrant puller. This relates to the earlier argument in the thread about the greater appeal of plumping for a series (no matter how new) for being on the GP support bill even over an established series like F3.

Funnily enough It ought to be easier to sell sponsorship space for an WSR car than an F3 as well because of the massive crowds that go to it. The crowds at WSR meetings are second only to F1 and Le Mans surely?

It's therefore a no brainer for a new series that doesn't have manufacturer backing (like the WSR does), to get on a GP bill than go on as support to existing non GP series with the exception of Touring Cars maybe. But then Touring cars has crowds but isn't the right arena for aspirational youg drivers and their sponsors who are selling the F1 dream, not a national series as the target.