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Old 29 May 2014, 21:22 (Ref:3412517)   #301
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Originally Posted by wolfhound View Post
I won't go through the list of teams in F1 that have started up and raced in F1 for more than 5 or 6 years as that is what I would regard as the basis of a succesful F1 team. Of the current F1 teams only 2 of them can be traced directly back to the sixties namely Ferrari and McLaren. Williams started in the early seventies and the current Mercedes squad can be tenuously traced back to Tyrrell. Of the rest they are all of more recent vintage.
I had in mind Tyrrell which started in F1 in 1968 when Ken ran a Matra DFV for Jackie after running Matra F2 and F3 cars in the previous year. Matra left them at the end of 1969, Tyrrell using march 701's until Tyrrell 001 appeared later in 1970 in time for the Oulton Park Gold Cup
Tyrrell of course has gone through a long metamorphosis before becoming what it is now.

Frank Williams of course began in F1 in 1969 when he ran Piers Courage in a private Brabham BT26 Cosworth before going with de Tomaso in 1970. He subsequently used Marches in 1971 before building his own cars later in 1972-3-4-5 then the left over Hesketh's and merging with Walter Wolf.
Frank abandoned that to partner with Patrick Head and begin Williams Grand Prix Engineering, and hired Alan Jones for 1978. This team was the genesis of what is now Frank's Williams F1 team.

After Frank left Wolf Walter then hired Jody as driver and Harvey built the WR1.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 09:17 (Ref:3415129)   #302
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Talking about deja vu, when Haas announced he was putting things back a year to 2016, I thought is this going to be US F1 all over again? Time will tell.
Well, there is an interview in Pitpass that Haas has just had with Sylt, and either Haas is being utterly disingenuous or demonstrating an amazing level of naivety.

Firstly, lets look at logistics; he says he doesn't know how the Formula 1 teams pack their equipment and cars to either travel by road or to be transported for the fly away races. He says that he doesn't even know where they fly from! And he also needs to find out what they will require when they are at the races, so is going to Montreal to ask the teams there this coming week-end.

Next, he says that he hasn't yet got any premises in the USA to start the team. What he is expecting is to do is use the building that his NASCAR team are currently based in because he is constructing a new "workshop" for the NASCAR team which should be ready in a month or so. They will then have to adapt the old "workshop" to be fit for purpose for the F1 team.

Then we have the problem about setting up an European base. He had originally decided to open, in his words, a 'shop' in Milan, Italy but his accountant has now told him that that is not possible due to tax implications for Haas. So, he is now thinking about basing the European entity in the UK, but hasn't yet got anything in mind.

And, added to all the above, he doesn't have any staff lined up let alone any already employed.

Now, taking him at his word, this must mean that he hasn't costed out what it will take to set up a Formula 1 team nor how much it will cost to maintain the team for a season. Has nobody asked him where his business plan is, or do all those around him just think that just because he is a multi-millionaire that cost is of no significance?
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 12:40 (Ref:3415184)   #303
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Well, there is an interview in Pitpass that Haas has just had with Sylt, and either Haas is being utterly disingenuous or demonstrating an amazing level of naivety.

Firstly, lets look at logistics; he says he doesn't know how the Formula 1 teams pack their equipment and cars to either travel by road or to be transported for the fly away races. He says that he doesn't even know where they fly from! And he also needs to find out what they will require when they are at the races, so is going to Montreal to ask the teams there this coming week-end.

Next, he says that he hasn't yet got any premises in the USA to start the team. What he is expecting is to do is use the building that his NASCAR team are currently based in because he is constructing a new "workshop" for the NASCAR team which should be ready in a month or so. They will then have to adapt the old "workshop" to be fit for purpose for the F1 team.

Then we have the problem about setting up an European base. He had originally decided to open, in his words, a 'shop' in Milan, Italy but his accountant has now told him that that is not possible due to tax implications for Haas. So, he is now thinking about basing the European entity in the UK, but hasn't yet got anything in mind.

And, added to all the above, he doesn't have any staff lined up let alone any already employed.

Now, taking him at his word, this must mean that he hasn't costed out what it will take to set up a Formula 1 team nor how much it will cost to maintain the team for a season. Has nobody asked him where his business plan is, or do all those around him just think that just because he is a multi-millionaire that cost is of no significance?
Seriously! No feasibility study at all!
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 13:11 (Ref:3415199)   #304
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Now, taking him at his word, this must mean that he hasn't costed out what it will take to set up a Formula 1 team nor how much it will cost to maintain the team for a season. Has nobody asked him where his business plan is, or do all those around him just think that just because he is a multi-millionaire that cost is of no significance?
A detailed business plan is irrelevant when it comes to these back of the grid teams. All they need is a running tap of cash.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 13:22 (Ref:3415211)   #305
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
Well, there is an interview in Pitpass that Haas has just had with Sylt, and either Haas is being utterly disingenuous or demonstrating an amazing level of naivety.

Firstly, lets look at logistics; he says he doesn't know how the Formula 1 teams pack their equipment and cars to either travel by road or to be transported for the fly away races. He says that he doesn't even know where they fly from! And he also needs to find out what they will require when they are at the races, so is going to Montreal to ask the teams there this coming week-end.

Next, he says that he hasn't yet got any premises in the USA to start the team. What he is expecting is to do is use the building that his NASCAR team are currently based in because he is constructing a new "workshop" for the NASCAR team which should be ready in a month or so. They will then have to adapt the old "workshop" to be fit for purpose for the F1 team.

Then we have the problem about setting up an European base. He had originally decided to open, in his words, a 'shop' in Milan, Italy but his accountant has now told him that that is not possible due to tax implications for Haas. So, he is now thinking about basing the European entity in the UK, but hasn't yet got anything in mind.

And, added to all the above, he doesn't have any staff lined up let alone any already employed.

Now, taking him at his word, this must mean that he hasn't costed out what it will take to set up a Formula 1 team nor how much it will cost to maintain the team for a season. Has nobody asked him where his business plan is, or do all those around him just think that just because he is a multi-millionaire that cost is of no significance?
At this juncture, I wouldn't necessarily expect him to have any staff lined up or any already employed, apart from the staff for the NASCAR team, however the rest smacks of pure naïveté and really makes me think this will never get off the ground. I wonder if he's go a toaster?
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 14:08 (Ref:3415233)   #306
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At this juncture, I wouldn't necessarily expect him to have any staff lined up or any already employed, apart from the staff for the NASCAR team, however the rest smacks of pure naïveté and really makes me think this will never get off the ground. I wonder if he's go a toaster?
As someone has already said, his toaster is CNC machined!
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 14:30 (Ref:3415245)   #307
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I was very surprised with some of what Haas said. I would have thought by now he should have had a number of people working on the project with some recent F1 experience to bring him up to speed on a lot of the stuff he was talking about. After all you don't really need passports and customs clearance when moving your gear for NASCAR. I wonder how soon he will start getting a team of people together to run the F1 team.
It appears that Forza Rossa is way ahead of Haas in terms of basic early preparations as Forza Rossa are using Colin Kolles and his German based operation to run the team build the car etc.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 14:32 (Ref:3415246)   #308
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As someone has already said, his toaster is CNC machined!
That's good to know and on a personal level I feel much better for knowing that.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 14:36 (Ref:3415250)   #309
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I wouldn't be at all surprised that upon learning some home truths from his accountants, this whole Haas effort will disappear into the ether.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 16:01 (Ref:3415286)   #310
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I was very surprised with some of what Haas said. I would have thought by now he should have had a number of people working on the project with some recent F1 experience to bring him up to speed on a lot of the stuff he was talking about. After all you don't really need passports and customs clearance when moving your gear for NASCAR. I wonder how soon he will start getting a team of people together to run the F1 team.
It appears that Forza Rossa is way ahead of Haas in terms of basic early preparations as Forza Rossa are using Colin Kolles and his German based operation to run the team build the car etc.
I say the following with some trepidation, and from well below the parapet in case of any incoming, but I some times think that many of our American cousins, Gawd bless them all, believe that with just some cash and Obama's 'Can do' mentality that they can "conquer" all before them. Just to prove that I am an ecumenical abuser, I also believe that this is a trait shared by a number of Russians.

Formula 1 is a highly complex "sport", and the leading teams will have already started preparing their cars for 2015, and will no doubt have staff assigned to just that, and they already have all the necessary infrastructure in place and well structured. They will probably have started some preparatory work on the 2016 chargers.

Now Haas has to find these type of people, and all the good ones will be tied up in contracts with their current employers. If he wants them, they will need to hand their notices in, and in many cases that can result in them having to take "gardening" leave for many, many months because they will all have non-compete clauses in their employment contracts.

And, unless he does have a competent F1 trained team principle/manager on board, he is not going to be truly able to go about unearthing all the hidden costs that are involved in running a team, even if that team was a minnow.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 16:33 (Ref:3415308)   #311
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I say the following with some trepidation, and from well below the parapet in case of any incoming, but I some times think that many of our American cousins, Gawd bless them all, believe that with just some cash and Obama's 'Can do' mentality that they can "conquer" all before them. Just to prove that I am an ecumenical abuser, I also believe that this is a trait shared by a number of Russians.

Formula 1 is a highly complex "sport", and the leading teams will have already started preparing their cars for 2015, and will no doubt have staff assigned to just that, and they already have all the necessary infrastructure in place and well structured. They will probably have started some preparatory work on the 2016 chargers.

Now Haas has to find these type of people, and all the good ones will be tied up in contracts with their current employers. If he wants them, they will need to hand their notices in, and in many cases that can result in them having to take "gardening" leave for many, many months because they will all have non-compete clauses in their employment contracts.

And, unless he does have a competent F1 trained team principle/manager on board, he is not going to be truly able to go about unearthing all the hidden costs that are involved in running a team, even if that team was a minnow.
I think that's why Haas has been looking at Dallara for the chassis and at Ferrari as a technical partner, because he doesn't have the expertise and hence basing his team in Italy.
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Old 7 Jun 2014, 12:10 (Ref:3416554)   #312
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According to this article, Guenther Steiner has confirmed Haas for 2016.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114308
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Old 7 Jun 2014, 12:49 (Ref:3416563)   #313
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I know it makes me a conspiracy theoriest but lets not forget that the Haas story came out the same day as Bernie's latest court troubles hit the press
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Old 7 Jun 2014, 15:05 (Ref:3416607)   #314
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
I say the following with some trepidation, and from well below the parapet in case of any incoming, but I some times think that many of our American cousins, Gawd bless them all, believe that with just some cash and Obama's 'Can do' mentality that they can "conquer" all before them. Just to prove that I am an ecumenical abuser, I also believe that this is a trait shared by a number of Russians.

Formula 1 is a highly complex "sport", and the leading teams will have already started preparing their cars for 2015, and will no doubt have staff assigned to just that, and they already have all the necessary infrastructure in place and well structured. They will probably have started some preparatory work on the 2016 chargers.

Now Haas has to find these type of people, and all the good ones will be tied up in contracts with their current employers. If he wants them, they will need to hand their notices in, and in many cases that can result in them having to take "gardening" leave for many, many months because they will all have non-compete clauses in their employment contracts.

And, unless he does have a competent F1 trained team principle/manager on board, he is not going to be truly able to go about unearthing all the hidden costs that are involved in running a team, even if that team was a minnow.
Mike,

I think you got us there.

Looking back over the years, we have had some very "short" forays into F1

Lance Reventlow, Gurney, Parnelli Jones, the first Hass, Peter Windsor's group, even Penske.....

There have been some who stayed around a little longer like Shadow, but for the most part, F1 is more than they bargined for.
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Old 7 Jun 2014, 15:16 (Ref:3416615)   #315
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I suspect two things happen.

He buys an existing outfit, which he has already denied, though, I suspect will happen anyway.

This all goes away with them selling CNC waffle irons. The toaster has been done.
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Old 7 Jun 2014, 15:46 (Ref:3416627)   #316
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I hear Sauber might be looking for new owners by years end. Cannot see any Sauber staff moving to North Carolina though. Too much of a climate change.
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Old 7 Jun 2014, 18:35 (Ref:3416678)   #317
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BBC reporting Fernandes definitely ready to offload Caterham so if I were Haas or Kolles ans there aren't any nasties hidden in the team's books, I would be bidding to take that outfit over?
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Old 7 Jun 2014, 18:50 (Ref:3416684)   #318
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Judging by the recent quotes by Gene, I can't believe so many are taking his F1 bid so seriously.

The guy sounds utterly clueless!

I highly suspect we'll never see his entry make the grid. Kolles' however, I think will be on next year.

Shame we won't have a 24-26 car grid, though. Cannot see all the current teams sticking around for next year.

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Old 7 Jun 2014, 19:38 (Ref:3416702)   #319
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Listening to David Coulthard talking about Guenther Steiner on the BBC he was not very complementry about his (Steiner's) time with Red Bull. It will be interesting to see how Haas will get on in F1 if he gets there.
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Old 8 Jun 2014, 19:58 (Ref:3417059)   #320
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Judging by the recent quotes by Gene, I can't believe so many are taking his F1 bid so seriously.

The guy sounds utterly clueless!

I highly suspect we'll never see his entry make the grid. Kolles' however, I think will be on next year.

Shame we won't have a 24-26 car grid, though. Cannot see all the current teams sticking around for next year.

Selby
I have a hard time calling a self made billionaire clueless. I think he his holding his cards and seeing how they fit his business's long term goals before he jumps head first into anything.
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Old 8 Jun 2014, 20:08 (Ref:3417071)   #321
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I have a hard time calling a self made billionaire clueless. I think he his holding his cards and seeing how they fit his business's long term goals before he jumps head first into anything.
I agree he's anything but clueless.

Having said that, starting an F1 team based in Charlotte probably makes as much sense as starting a NASCAR Sprint Cup team based at Silverstone.

Just way, way more expensive.
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Old 8 Jun 2014, 22:20 (Ref:3417198)   #322
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I have a hard time calling a self made billionaire clueless. I think he his holding his cards and seeing how they fit his business's long term goals before he jumps head first into anything.
F1 is like the Bermuda Triangle for common sense.

Very shrewd tycoons have and will lose their marbles when they come into contact with this sport.

Guy could prove me wrong - I hope he does. But from current trends, he lacks judgement in this area if he has ideas about cracking this sport.
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Old 9 Jun 2014, 02:00 (Ref:3417279)   #323
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Americans as a general observation are very insular and this restricts their thinking and limits their outlook. Having been successful in NASCAR he most probably at this stage of the project can see no reason to change the way he has done things in the past.
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Old 9 Jun 2014, 08:51 (Ref:3417396)   #324
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BBC reporting Fernandes definitely ready to offload Caterham so if I were Haas or Kolles ans there aren't any nasties hidden in the team's books, I would be bidding to take that outfit over?
What's the point? What would this do to progress F1 outside the UK? I think the International audience is sophisticated enough to tell the difference between a thinly disguised British team and a German/Romanian or American team.

I think (or at least hope) we are seeing a fundamental shift in F1 policy. I think the F1 powers have finally realised that the sport is doomed unless they have a more international spread of teams. The 'UK F1 Championship' doesnt cut it with the International audience anymore. I hope it's no coincidence that both new teams will be based outside the UK. Not sure if Bernie's troubles have lessened his influence on the sport or if he's seen the light, but it's clear that the German bankers (or where ever they're from) who own the sport realise they need to get more global to survive long term. Once Bernie departs (nobody is immortal), I think the global trend will accelerate. Otherwise the sport is dead.
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Old 9 Jun 2014, 10:17 (Ref:3417424)   #325
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Originally Posted by csirl View Post
What's the point? What would this do to progress F1 outside the UK? I think the International audience is sophisticated enough to tell the difference between a thinly disguised British team and a German/Romanian or American team.

I think (or at least hope) we are seeing a fundamental shift in F1 policy. I think the F1 powers have finally realised that the sport is doomed unless they have a more international spread of teams. The 'UK F1 Championship' doesnt cut it with the International audience anymore. I hope it's no coincidence that both new teams will be based outside the UK. Not sure if Bernie's troubles have lessened his influence on the sport or if he's seen the light, but it's clear that the German bankers (or where ever they're from) who own the sport realise they need to get more global to survive long term. Once Bernie departs (nobody is immortal), I think the global trend will accelerate. Otherwise the sport is dead.
F1 has evolved into a sport where a lot of the teams are based in the same area of the UK. Logistically this makes perfect sense due to all the companies that have sprung up supplying parts and materials etc are in the same area of the country. Most the British F1 industry is based within a small area.

Plus of course it is easier and cheaper to headhunt brainpower from someone based just down the raod, instead of trying to get someone to relocate to the other side of the world.

This is not some kind of insular closed-shop, but is a case of pure logistics. HRT in Spain and any team setup in the States are going to struggle to replicate what a British based team can do without spending a lot more money. Plus of course a US team is going to have to have a base somewhere in Europe, otherwise for a large part of the Europian season they are going to be flying to and fro accross the Atlantic.

Anyway, most "British" F1 teams are multinational affairs these days. The days of Ken Tyrell or a union jack waving Lord Hesketh are no more.
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