Lapped cars in second safety car period

[BootsOntheSide]

Does anybody know why Kovalainen did not move through the pack when the lapped drivers were instructed to? It looked like he cost himself points with that mistake.

I have to emphasisse how much I dislike the rule of moving lapped cars out of the way though. If there's a car between yourself and the guy behind you, that's an advantage you've earnt - it's not fair to lose that, just for the sake of putting on a show. It's not as if F1 drivers ever overtake immediately after the safety car anyway.

[willb]

i have seen that done in other racing series. note that you are not allowed to pass during a safety car period so they may be doing that to account for the lapped cars normally being blue flagged during a normal lap which would allow a car on the lead lap to pass them with minimal delay.

[Lord Summerisle]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

If there's a car between yourself and the guy behind you, that's an advantage you've earnt - it's not fair to lose that, just for the sake of putting on a show. It's not as if F1 drivers ever overtake immediately after the safety car anyway.

But then, those lapped cars are just going to immediatly recieve the blue flag on passing the line - so in a way its far better to get them out the way before racing re-commences.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Does anybody know why Kovalainen did not move through the pack when the lapped drivers were instructed to? It looked like he cost himself points with that mistake.

I think it is the team's task to inform the driver about if and when to pass the Safety Car. Maybe the team made a mistake by not informing Kovelainen. Obviously Kovelainen don't want to take the risk of illegally passing the Safety Car, because that would be penalised with the black flag.

I have to emphasisse how much I dislike the rule of moving lapped cars out of the way though. If there's a car between yourself and the guy behind you, that's an advantage you've earnt - it's not fair to lose that, just for the sake of putting on a show. It's not as if F1 drivers ever overtake immediately after the safety car anyway.

Good point, but that brings us to the next issue: the Safety Car itself. I think the Safety Car is against the spirit of the sport and the FIA should look for alternatives. But that's just my (partly off-topic) opinion.

[ensign14]

Easy alternative. Every car has 5 seconds to put on the pit lane limiter. Preserves the gaps (even if someone sneaks up a bit they're still not as well off as with the show car) and keeps course workers safe.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Easy alternative. Every car has 5 seconds to put on the pit lane limiter. Preserves the gaps (even if someone sneaks up a bit they're still not as well off as with the show car) and keeps course workers safe.

I agree. This alternative is known as 'Code 60'. In a Dutch racing cup this alternative is already in use and the marshalls prefer it instead of a Safety Car.

[Ralf's Girl]

I wondered if Heidfeld being in amongst the leading pack behind the safety car confused things - as far as I can tell, he was ahead of Kovalainen on the track but was actually a lap or two behind him in the race. Perhaps somebody at McLaren didn't make clear to Kovalainen that passing Heidfeld wouldn't be overtaking under the safety car?

I don't like the 'lapped cars may now overtake' rule simply because it's inconsistent - you can't pit under the safety car because they don't want drivers passing accident scenes at racing speed to dive into the pits, but you can bomb round the track after passing the safety car to join up to the back of the pack? The logic of that must have passed me by.

[broadrun96]

I believe they are still limited when they are waved around the SC, and I'm positive the marshals are keeping an eye the speeds and driving line of the lapped cars as they come around. And with the way most people rail about drivers not heeding the blue flags, if they were not waved around there would be ALOT more whining about lapped cars keeping frontrunners apart after a SC period and influencing the outcome. No matter how it is handled it interferes with the flow of the race and will make one group mad about what happened. Getting the track cleaned of carbon debris, esp on a street course is going to require a SC period, and the wave around is the only way to minimize the advantage the drivers in front will have to get a bigger lead while others try to pass on tight circuits.

[GolddustMini]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

I don't like the 'lapped cars may now overtake' rule simply because it's inconsistent - you can't pit under the safety car because they don't want drivers passing accident scenes at racing speed to dive into the pits, but you can bomb round the track after passing the safety car to join up to the back of the pack? The logic of that must have passed me by.

here here!

[Bleu]

Usually track is in quite a good condition when the lapped drivers are ordered to overtake.

[crmalcolm]

My understanding of the rule is that once the track is safe, the lapped cars can un-lap themselves. This should result in all cars being in their correct order.
In theory, this will now be safer because the need for blue flags will be removed, and everyone will be racing for position.
By keeping lapped cars amongst the front runners, but bunched up because of the SC, the blue flagging will be unclear.
When green flagged, like at the start, all drivers need to know that everyone around them will be fully commited.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Does anybody know why Kovalainen did not move through the pack when the lapped drivers were instructed to? It looked like he cost himself points with that mistake.

This is what Martin Whitmarsh had to say on it............

He was eventually cleared to pass, but the race then restarted while he was still in no man’s land.

It seem's that maybe the team were waiting for instruction for Heikki unlap himself?

[koper]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Easy alternative. Every car has 5 seconds to put on the pit lane limiter. Preserves the gaps (even if someone sneaks up a bit they're still not as well off as with the show car) and keeps course workers safe.

Yeap, but pit lane speed is too low for F1 cars...the tyres would lost their working temperature causing very dangerous situation at the restart.

On the other hand higher limit could still be dangerous in the places needed lower speed to safely go through (i.e. many debris or car's pile up).

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

I don't like the 'lapped cars may now overtake' rule simply because it's inconsistent - you can't pit under the safety car because they don't want drivers passing accident scenes at racing speed to dive into the pits, but you can bomb round the track after passing the safety car to join up to the back of the pack? The logic of that must have passed me by.

Of course you can. Cars are only waved by when the track is clear again - or at least that's how it should be.

I really don't think there's anything else that can be done. Accident sites are so different that you really need a human being in the lead who decides how cars should proceed to them, because there can't be a rule that covers it all.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

Perhaps somebody at McLaren didn't make clear to Kovalainen that passing Heidfeld wouldn't be overtaking under the safety car?

Perhaps McLaren wanted an extra lap or two under safety car to soak up some more moisture off the track and give Lewis fewer laps to hold out for at the end of the race?

Oh no!!! A conspiracy theory!!!??? Noooooooooooooo!

Though this doesn't explain Nick's reluctance to move - perhaps BMW couldn't wake him from his slumber.

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by mac

Perhaps McLaren wanted an extra lap or two under safety car to soak up some more moisture off the track and give Lewis fewer laps to hold out for at the end of the race?

Oh no!!! A conspiracy theory!!!??? Noooooooooooooo!

Though this doesn't explain Nick's reluctance to move - perhaps BMW couldn't wake him from his slumber.

I have a better conspiracy theory MacLaren WANTED him there, to act as rear gunner. Yes he has to move out of the way for blue flags, but he has 3 flags to do it, and for each car, by which time LH is miles up the road, instead of having a competitor who may (although it didn't turn out to be the case) have a stronger/better car. That competitor fighting for position is also more likely to challange for a place and even do a desperate, which may lose the race for Hamilton, even if it was not his fault

If I was in Mac shoes and had the choice I would have sacrificed Kova as well.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by mac

.....Oh no!!! A conspiracy theory!!!??? Noooooooooooooo!

Conspiracy?...F1?....surely not!

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

And with the way most people rail about drivers not heeding the blue flags, if they were not waved around there would be ALOT more whining about lapped cars keeping frontrunners apart after a SC period and influencing the outcome. No matter how it is handled it interferes with the flow of the race and will make one group mad about what happened. Getting the track cleaned of carbon debris, esp on a street course is going to require a SC period, and the wave around is the only way to minimize the advantage the drivers in front will have to get a bigger lead while others try to pass on tight circuits.

But on the other hand, without the Safety Car being deployed following drivers would still had to pass the backmarkers. In fact, with waving drivers by the following drivers gain an even bigger and more unfair advantage by the Safety Car.

Originally Posted by koper

On the other hand higher limit could still be dangerous in the places needed lower speed to safely go through (i.e. many debris or car's pile up).

Hmm, I think the cars go significantly faster behind the Safety Car than they would with some sort of 'Code 60'. But any way, the marshalls could instruct the drivers to slow down when reaching a dangerous spot.

[bludvl_x19]

Under the F1 safety car regs (as I understand it ) when the safety car goes out, it laps as fast as it can in the conditions, in order to keep the F1 cars tyre temps up and the radiators functioning 'properly' and to make restarts safe.

If they went to a 'C60', the cars would be limited to 100km/h, at which point
I believe that the tyres would cool down, and the cars would start to overheat.

This leads me to think that for F1, a 'Code 60' situation isn't the solution to the 'problem'

Mick

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Easy alternative. Every car has 5 seconds to put on the pit lane limiter. Preserves the gaps (even if someone sneaks up a bit they're still not as well off as with the show car) and keeps course workers safe.

Wouldn't work in all cases. The point of bunching the cars up is that it creates a longer window for the marshalls to remove debris. You cannot have course workers going around the track with cars doing 80 km/h, sorry.

There are also plenty of circumstances where 80 km/h is too fast in an area.

The lapped cars may overtake business just needs better communication.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Of course you can. Cars are only waved by when the track is clear again - or at least that's how it should be.

I'm still not sure it's an entirely sensible way to do things, though - even if the track is clear, the lapped cars that have passed the safety car must have to go at quite a lick to get round to the back of the queue again before the safety car pits. Considering that their brakes and tyres won't be at racing temperature, that's not necessarily particularly safe. It seems to me as if this rule is solving one set of problems and perhaps causing a couple more.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

I'm still not sure it's an entirely sensible way to do things, though - even if the track is clear, the lapped cars that have passed the safety car must have to go at quite a lick to get round to the back of the queue again before the safety car pits. Considering that their brakes and tyres won't be at racing temperature, that's not necessarily particularly safe.

Same thing as after the restart, only without the possibility of multi-car pileups in turn 1

[Lord Summerisle]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Hmm, I think the cars go significantly faster behind the Safety Car than they would with some sort of 'Code 60'. But any way, the marshalls could instruct the drivers to slow down when reaching a dangerous spot.

but, that is what happens at the moment - except theres a safety car controling the pace - the Safety Car is in contact with Race Control and receiving instructions and controls the pace of the pace, A) to bunch the pack up as quickly as possible. B) when getting to the scene of the cause of the safety flag intervention can slow the pack down to a suitable speed.

once the incident is cleared, the lapped cars can pass, and run round the track - still under yellow flag conditions, IE go at a pace that you can stop, or take avoiding action.

It might not be perfect - but its a fairly simple solution. and one that needs to take account of the differing levels of experiance of the Marshal's on the bank - not all GPs are held in countries with alot of motorsport

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Wouldn't work in all cases. The point of bunching the cars up is that it creates a longer window for the marshalls to remove debris. You cannot have course workers going around the track with cars doing 80 km/h, sorry.

There are also plenty of circumstances where 80 km/h is too fast in an area.

They would be doing that sort of speed behind the show car. If it's too fast, then red flag it. (And get rid of the odious rule that the racetimes re-start.)

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Same thing as after the restart, only without the possibility of multi-car pileups in turn 1

I don't remember there being many pile-ups on the restart before the 'lapped cars overtaking' rule was introduced. I'm just not sure that this is the best way to deal with the problem, if indeed there really is a problem.