Failing to lose a place

[browney]

I was wondering if anyone had seen anything come out with the reasoning for Hulkenberg not getting a penalty for cutting the chicane in front of Webber?

The commentators mentioned it and from the very brief images we got on television, it seemed he only kept his position by going off the track.

What about Hulkenberg's move was o.k but other times people get penalties or have to let the person behind through? Or was it just that the images we got of it on television were more deceptive and Webber wasn't really that close?

[Knowlesy]

Definitely it was Ferrari International Assistance, being in Italy and all.

[Super Hans]

It's always more difficult for the stewards when the guilty driver is defending a position (as opposed to taking a position). Having to give a place back is not as harsh as having to give a place up. I don't know what I'd have done.

[browney]

I think this one is interesting though because it seems like it was pushing the line and also because we know that Red Bull/Mark on the radio bought it to the stewards attention (which means it was definitely within the rules rather than just being a mistake by the stewards not seeing it).

[garcon]

The thing is, of the three or four occasions Hulk ended up missing the chicane, only one of those was under serious pressure from Webber and even then it's far from certain Webber would have passed him. I could understand Webber's frustration but I think the stewards probably got it right.

[Super Hans]

The proper solution would be to get rid of both chicanes.

They ruin the flow of the track.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

The proper solution would be to get rid of both chicanes.

They ruin the flow of the track.

Or block the escape route with a free-standing but well-strapped-together tyre barrier. If drivers know that leaving the track will result in retirement, they won't push it quite so hard.

On a more general note, it looked to us watching the television as if the Hulk should get a penalty. Red Bull brought it to the attention of the stewards. Therefore I can't see why the stewards didn't investigate. If they had investigated and said "no problem", I could have accepted that, but to not investigate at all smells a bit fishy to me.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Or block the escape route with a free-standing but well-strapped-together tyre barrier. If drivers know that leaving the track will result in retirement, they won't push it quite so hard.

On a more general note, it looked to us watching the television as if the Hulk should get a penalty. Red Bull brought it to the attention of the stewards. Therefore I can't see why the stewards didn't investigate. If they had investigated and said "no problem", I could have accepted that, but to not investigate at all smells a bit fishy to me.

The just solution would have been Webber should have straight lined the chicane a couple of times to catch up to Hulkenberg again!

Cost him massively at the end of the day!

[browney]

Originally Posted by garcon

The thing is, of the three or four occasions Hulk ended up missing the chicane, only one of those was under serious pressure from Webber and even then it's far from certain Webber would have passed him. I could understand Webber's frustration but I think the stewards probably got it right.

I thought the time when Webber got on the Radio about it, that he got an advantage, although I guess it can be hard to see on television. I haven't been able to find another vid of it to get a look.

In the end, I'm not sure it really effected the race result because Webber passed him soon after and I'm not sure there was enough opportunity for Webber to put in enough quick laps to stay in front of Vetel, however I think the stewards have been a bit inconsistent on this and was surprised they didn't investigate it.

[Greem]

Teams can only ask the Race Director to look at an incident; the Race Director can either recommend a team does something ("give the place back, there's a good chap") or pass it to the stewards for further investigation.

If the Race Director looks at the incident and doesn't feel an advantage was gained, it doesn't go to the stewards, and no penalties are applied.

If there's any inconsistency here, it's with Race Control and the Race Director. The stewards only act when things are referred to them.

But, of course, you all know this...

[Born Racer]

But Alguersuari got a drive-through for the same thing, did he not? Does anyone know how many times he did the same thing? Stewarding may not be easy, but God, there are some oversights sometimes.

[D.R.T.]

I thought the first two times Nico was fine however after third time (especially considering Mark went side by side after the corner) he was gaining an advantage.

With sand or a barrier there Nico wouldnt have stayed infront

[JamesH]

In the overtake case, there is an obvious advantage, but how do you prove an advantage when no position changed? I think that is the problem. NH could just argue - "well, he wouldn't have overtaken me anyway", but since you cannot prove one way or the other whether he would have done it's a difficult situation.

[boyracer019]

Mark could have straight lined the chicane, given the place back to Nico, dropped into the tow and nailed him at the next corner ;-)

[strider]

I'm in no doubt that Hulkenberg should have been penalised. It was never so clear cut as gaining a place by taking the short-cut, but certainly once I felt he kept his place by doing it and every time he gained some small advantage. In the post-race interview he even grinned like a naughty schoolboy when admitting that he had done it.

The result was Webber was held up behind him for much longer than he should have been and probably lost 4th place as as a result. That's why he was so fed up afterwards.

[Mak]

IMO On its own merit the last time he cut the chicane and Webber got along side was enough to warrent a penalty. The fact that he had cut the chicane several times previously should have been taken into consideration as it had given him an advantage on each occassion. Ie moved him slightly further ahead of Webber. I was a little disappointed with Webber attitude when interviewed after as he is a proffessional driver and normally would put on a more positive face.
Shows when even the most down to earth driver is feeling the pressure of going for the championship.

[Grandpa_Rob]

The Hulk was obviously outbraking himself into the chicane, if he had continued on track rather than cut the chicane Webber would have had him at least on one of the three occassion. The Stewards should have been told to look into the Hulks chicaneagans ..............

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by garcon

The thing is, of the three or four occasions Hulk ended up missing the chicane, only one of those was under serious pressure from Webber and even then it's far from certain Webber would have passed him. I could understand Webber's frustration but I think the stewards probably got it right.

And this is what Williams used as their arguement.

Fair play to Hulk, he admitted after the race that one or two of his "offs" were near the mark, but as he rightly pointed out, if the stewards didn't punish him then he must have been ok.

[Greem]

The stewards weren't asked to punish him. Charlie Whiting made that decision all by himself (well, along with his race control staff I would guess).

[strider]

Originally Posted by Mak

I was a little disappointed with Webber attitude when interviewed after as he is a professional driver and normally would put on a more positive face.
Shows when even the most down to earth driver is feeling the pressure of going for the championship.

If you genuinely feel that you've lost two places as a result of a bad call by the Race Director, I think you're allowed to show that you're pretty hacked off.

Originally Posted by Greem

The stewards weren't asked to punish him. Charlie Whiting made that decision all by himself (well, along with his race control staff I would guess).

I don't often disagree with Charlie, but on this occasion I do. At the very least the Stewards should have been asked to look at it.

Mind you, by the time they'd done that and given a decision, Webber would have been past Hulkenberg, so it wouldn't have compensated him, just penalised Hulkenberg.

[ensign14]

IT'S "LOSE"!!!!!!!!!!!!

[johnh875]

Really a too-hard-basket situation, I mean how do you define what or how much of an advantage is gained, and how do you measure it?

That said, there could easily be a fairly conservatively framed rule put in place, ie one which Hulk would have hit on at least one of his efforts. Either that or put in tyre barrier chicanes like they have at Le Mans.

[garcon]

I'd just like to say that I didn't need ensign's less than subtle prompt to correct the thread title - it's been bugging me for days.

[browney]

Yeah, I guess a definate rule is hard to make. I just thought in this race Nico Hülkenberg was really leniently treated compared to what we have come to accept as being allowed of recent. He both consistently used an area that isn't supposed to be part of the track, and seemingly straight-lined the chicane while battling with another driver which prevented him loosing a position.

It would now seem to be unreasonable for a driver in future races this season to be penalised for missing a corner, even several times, unless he actually uses it to pass another driver. However I think it is quite likely that this will be penalised some time in the future and I will look inconsistent.

[phoenix]

A question Webber could justifiably ask at the next drivers pre-race briefing is:

"If the guy you are chasing takes a short cut off circuit, say by straight-lining a chicane, is it ok for the guy following to take the same shortcut, so he is not disadvantaged?"

I'd like to hear Charlie's answer to that one.....